Soccer Discussion

Dickie Dunn
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Postby Dickie Dunn » Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:45 am

Depending on the report, he was either fired Friday after the loss to Everton with no announcement until this morning, or he refused to take the team out for training this morning after the Super League announcement and was immediately canned. Either way, good riddance.

Gaucho
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Postby Gaucho » Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:49 am

I call BS on the latter.

Dickie Dunn
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Postby Dickie Dunn » Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:58 am

I do too. I think this the product of a couple things:

- Spurs have sucked under Mourinho and the fanbase was beyond tired of him.
- Not a single person in the world, outside of the 12 decision makers, has reacted positively to the Super League announcement and this could buy ownership a couple hours where the fanbase doesn't want their head on a stick.
- Nagelsmann has been long rumored as the desired replacement and Flick leaving Bayern complicates things. Probably want to get a jump on it.

Dickie Dunn
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Postby Dickie Dunn » Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:24 am

I understand why UEFA is against that.

But fans of the teams involved? We are talking about an activity (kicking a sphere into a rectangular area), that aside from its entertainment potential is completely and utterly ridiculous and useless.

Now, since this is entertainment activity - why not create a top-notch product (similarly to having a series of movies with the very best actors) that will entertain on a weekly basis? Protesting that is like claiming "every movie should have at most 3 good actors, the rest should be from a a local semi-amateur theater."

The point: I'll gladly watch multiple games that pair Juventus, Barcelona, Liverpool, Bayern, etc. against each other repeatedly, week after week, compared to watching PSV Eindhoven, Donetsk, Panathinaikos, Sporting Lisbon, Gent, Dynamo Zagreb, Celtic, or Slavia Prague...
While the global expansion of the sport has changed things significantly, we are in essence talking about local clubs that have existed for 100+ years in a system that awards performance to varying degrees. Promotion and relegation is the heart of the European football system. It awards great performances, punishes bad performances, and supports the dream (or illusion) that some peon club can climb four levels and compete at center stage. It also rewards the best performers at the best level with the promise of European football. Top four in the EPL is a major focus even when Man City is blowing everyone out of the water for the title. Much like a bottom of the table relegation battle, it keeps the top of the table interesting when it otherwise wouldn't be.

The leaders of the two Spanish powers, with the support of the money grubbing dadhole American EPL owners, have essentially created a "closed" American system for European competition. The 15 founding members are going nowhere, regardless of domestic performance (that they might be banned from), while five pity **** get to play along ever year. They have finalized taking a sport for "everyone" and limited it to only themselves based on name, power, and money, not performance and merit. In the process they have written themselves checks for hundreds of millions of dollars that no one else in their domestic leagues will be able to access or obtain, creating an even larger gap in leagues that have painfully lacked parody. All of the supporters groups statements I read yesterday talked about owners being caretakers of a club's history and tradition, which has been carpet bombed in favor of money and profits.

As far as the actual competition, the current UEFA system is not perfect, is money grubbing endeavor of its own, and the proposed "Swiss model" changes are a horrific nightmare solely designed to benefit the top teams, but Barca v. Man City is enticing because it doesn't happen every week. Because clubs have to work to get to that point. While Celtic v. Donetsk in the group stages might not mean much to the average viewer, it means a hell of a lot to those clubs and their fans. As long as there is a route for them to qualify for the group stage of European football there is hope and desire. As a Tottenham supporter, the harsh reality is that they currently suck. Thanks for all of the memories Jose. They have no business qualifying for European tournaments next year, need to retool the roster, and solely focus on EPL performance next year to right the ship. But now none of that matters. Their name and popularity has qualified them for the most specialistest of tournaments for eternity. They don't have to qualify for it. They don't have to improve the squad or their domestic league performance. They just have to show up midweek all season long and play bottom feeder to Barca and Madrid so ownership can get their hundreds of millions of dollars. Hooray?

It'll never happen, but American sports would be greatly improved with promotion and relegation. Taking the one system with promotion and relegation and moving it closer to the American sports system is only good for the select few that have chosen themselves for protected status. It hurts everyone else involved with the sport and these founding members can get ****.

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Postby Gaucho » Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:35 am

Well said (except for the autocorrect).

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Postby count2infinity » Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:55 am


Freddy Rumsen
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Postby Freddy Rumsen » Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:06 am

I understand why UEFA is against that.

But fans of the teams involved? We are talking about an activity (kicking a sphere into a rectangular area), that aside from its entertainment potential is completely and utterly ridiculous and useless.

Now, since this is entertainment activity - why not create a top-notch product (similarly to having a series of movies with the very best actors) that will entertain on a weekly basis? Protesting that is like claiming "every movie should have at most 3 good actors, the rest should be from a a local semi-amateur theater."

The point: I'll gladly watch multiple games that pair Juventus, Barcelona, Liverpool, Bayern, etc. against each other repeatedly, week after week, compared to watching PSV Eindhoven, Donetsk, Panathinaikos, Sporting Lisbon, Gent, Dynamo Zagreb, Celtic, or Slavia Prague...
While the global expansion of the sport has changed things significantly, we are in essence talking about local clubs that have existed for 100+ years in a system that awards performance to varying degrees. Promotion and relegation is the heart of the European football system. It awards great performances, punishes bad performances, and supports the dream (or illusion) that some peon club can climb four levels and compete at center stage. It also rewards the best performers at the best level with the promise of European football. Top four in the EPL is a major focus even when Man City is blowing everyone out of the water for the title. Much like a bottom of the table relegation battle, it keeps the top of the table interesting when it otherwise wouldn't be.

The leaders of the two Spanish powers, with the support of the money grubbing dadhole American EPL owners, have essentially created a "closed" American system for European competition. The 15 founding members are going nowhere, regardless of domestic performance (that they might be banned from), while five pity **** get to play along ever year. They have finalized taking a sport for "everyone" and limited it to only themselves based on name, power, and money, not performance and merit. In the process they have written themselves checks for hundreds of millions of dollars that no one else in their domestic leagues will be able to access or obtain, creating an even larger gap in leagues that have painfully lacked parody. All of the supporters groups statements I read yesterday talked about owners being caretakers of a club's history and tradition, which has been carpet bombed in favor of money and profits.

As far as the actual competition, the current UEFA system is not perfect, is money grubbing endeavor of its own, and the proposed "Swiss model" changes are a horrific nightmare solely designed to benefit the top teams, but Barca v. Man City is enticing because it doesn't happen every week. Because clubs have to work to get to that point. While Celtic v. Donetsk in the group stages might not mean much to the average viewer, it means a hell of a lot to those clubs and their fans. As long as there is a route for them to qualify for the group stage of European football there is hope and desire. As a Tottenham supporter, the harsh reality is that they currently suck. Thanks for all of the memories Jose. They have no business qualifying for European tournaments next year, need to retool the roster, and solely focus on EPL performance next year to right the ship. But now none of that matters. Their name and popularity has qualified them for the most specialistest of tournaments for eternity. They don't have to qualify for it. They don't have to improve the squad or their domestic league performance. They just have to show up midweek all season long and play bottom feeder to Barca and Madrid so ownership can get their hundreds of millions of dollars. Hooray?

It'll never happen, but American sports would be greatly improved with promotion and relegation. Taking the one system with promotion and relegation and moving it closer to the American sports system is only good for the select few that have chosen themselves for protected status. It hurts everyone else involved with the sport and these founding members can get ****.
Amen to all this.

No offense but Tottenham are basically the Vanderbilt to the Super League's SEC.

Also. Looks like UEFA is making it official.


Trip McNeely
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Postby Trip McNeely » Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:14 am

This entire ESL thing is really sad. It’s such a cash grab and while in the long run might be ok for overall watchability, it’s going to financially trash so many teams into bankruptcy. The small minnows will be fine. The ones that lose the most are the big teams just on the outside of the ESL. Teams like Roma, Napoli, Everton, Valencia, etc. they are so screwed

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Postby RonnieFranchise » Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:08 am

TIL that out of the Big 6 only Spurs are owned/chaired by a Brit.

Also West Ham is 51% owned by a Welsh former pornographer. Come On You Irons!!!!!

Arsenal is owned by the same guy who owns the Chippewa Walmart plaza lol.

Dickie Dunn
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Postby Dickie Dunn » Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:38 am

TIL that out of the Big 6 only Spurs are owned/chaired by a Brit.

Also West Ham is 51% owned by a Welsh former pornographer. Come On You Irons!!!!!

Arsenal is owned by the same guy who owns the Chippewa Walmart plaza lol.
Levy is out in front, but it's hard to even give Spurs that qualification given that the primary owner is a tax exile who lives on a yacht in the Caribbean. But yea, City is owned by BIG OIL, Man U is owned by Joel Glazer (Tampa Bay Bucs), Chelsea is owned by a Russian oligarch, Arsenal is owned by Stan Kroenke (LA Rams, Denver Nuggets, Colorado Avalanche), and Liverpool is owned by John W. Henry (Boston Red Sox). Spurs included, it's a group solely focused on their continued ability to make money.

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Postby Dickie Dunn » Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:13 pm


Freddy Rumsen
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Postby Freddy Rumsen » Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:36 pm

This headline is everything wrong with this dumpster fire.


Gaucho
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Postby Gaucho » Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:23 pm


Tomas
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Postby Tomas » Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:15 pm

I understand why UEFA is against that.

But fans of the teams involved? We are talking about an activity (kicking a sphere into a rectangular area), that aside from its entertainment potential is completely and utterly ridiculous and useless.

Now, since this is entertainment activity - why not create a top-notch product (similarly to having a series of movies with the very best actors) that will entertain on a weekly basis? Protesting that is like claiming "every movie should have at most 3 good actors, the rest should be from a a local semi-amateur theater."

The point: I'll gladly watch multiple games that pair Juventus, Barcelona, Liverpool, Bayern, etc. against each other repeatedly, week after week, compared to watching PSV Eindhoven, Donetsk, Panathinaikos, Sporting Lisbon, Gent, Dynamo Zagreb, Celtic, or Slavia Prague...
While the global expansion of the sport has changed things significantly, we are in essence talking about local clubs that have existed for 100+ years in a system that awards performance to varying degrees. Promotion and relegation is the heart of the European football system. It awards great performances, punishes bad performances, and supports the dream (or illusion) that some peon club can climb four levels and compete at center stage. It also rewards the best performers at the best level with the promise of European football. Top four in the EPL is a major focus even when Man City is blowing everyone out of the water for the title. Much like a bottom of the table relegation battle, it keeps the top of the table interesting when it otherwise wouldn't be.

The leaders of the two Spanish powers, with the support of the money grubbing dadhole American EPL owners, have essentially created a "closed" American system for European competition. The 15 founding members are going nowhere, regardless of domestic performance (that they might be banned from), while five pity **** get to play along ever year. They have finalized taking a sport for "everyone" and limited it to only themselves based on name, power, and money, not performance and merit. In the process they have written themselves checks for hundreds of millions of dollars that no one else in their domestic leagues will be able to access or obtain, creating an even larger gap in leagues that have painfully lacked parody. All of the supporters groups statements I read yesterday talked about owners being caretakers of a club's history and tradition, which has been carpet bombed in favor of money and profits.

As far as the actual competition, the current UEFA system is not perfect, is money grubbing endeavor of its own, and the proposed "Swiss model" changes are a horrific nightmare solely designed to benefit the top teams, but Barca v. Man City is enticing because it doesn't happen every week. Because clubs have to work to get to that point. While Celtic v. Donetsk in the group stages might not mean much to the average viewer, it means a hell of a lot to those clubs and their fans. As long as there is a route for them to qualify for the group stage of European football there is hope and desire. As a Tottenham supporter, the harsh reality is that they currently suck. Thanks for all of the memories Jose. They have no business qualifying for European tournaments next year, need to retool the roster, and solely focus on EPL performance next year to right the ship. But now none of that matters. Their name and popularity has qualified them for the most specialistest of tournaments for eternity. They don't have to qualify for it. They don't have to improve the squad or their domestic league performance. They just have to show up midweek all season long and play bottom feeder to Barca and Madrid so ownership can get their hundreds of millions of dollars. Hooray?

It'll never happen, but American sports would be greatly improved with promotion and relegation. Taking the one system with promotion and relegation and moving it closer to the American sports system is only good for the select few that have chosen themselves for protected status. It hurts everyone else involved with the sport and these founding members can get ****.
I don't think that sports are noble, that they make society better, etc. Basically, I subscribe to that saying that goes something like "professional athletes are people who have mastered a completely useless activity better than anyone else." Consequently, I follow professional sports strictly as an entertainment affair. And as such, watching a game competes for my "entertainment dollars" against visiting a good restaurant, going to the movies, etc.

And that's why I think my "movie analogy" is valid. Yes, you can mandate that the next movie can have Meryl Streep, Tom Hanks, and Leonardo DiCaprio - but then you also have to hire Becky Aplebee who got a theater degree from Central Idaho State University. I bet that Becky's family will be ecstatic - but 99.9% of movie-going public will hate watching her sub-standard performance.

Similarly - yes, I enjoyed Slavia Prague going into QF of EL (well, somewhat less after it turned out their best D-man may be a racist), but I understand I was one of not many fans who gave a damn about this provincial club. And had it been Celtic, Donetsk, Bruges, Fenerbahce, Zagreb - I would not have watched.

So - give me a league that constantly matches the very best "actors" against each other - likes of ManCity against Juventus, Barcelona, Bayern, or PSG, every week. Write down some rules that will force the teams to compete for the very top talent (salary floor, etc.) - and there is a good chance the games will show up on my TV (or more likely monitor 2 as a background while working :) ).

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Postby meecrofilm » Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:22 pm

People don't really give a **** about actors though. People do give lots of shits about clubs and their history.

For some it's just entertainment. But for many it's a lot more. Does it make society better? Eh. But it's much more personal to many than you're making it out to be.

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Postby Freddy Rumsen » Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:31 pm

Sports inarguably make society better, and for the English teams especially, since their domestic leagues and cups have longest unbroken history, to quote the SEC, it just means more.

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Postby Gaucho » Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:38 pm


Freddy Rumsen
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Postby Freddy Rumsen » Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:46 pm

Nice.

Dickie Dunn
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Postby Dickie Dunn » Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:23 pm

Put them in the Super League.

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Postby RonnieFranchise » Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:54 pm

So after getting debacled due to 20 bad seconds on Saturday, Hammers are still in CL position and can solidify it vs the Stamford Bridge Russian Oligarchs this weekend. I'll take it.

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Postby shafnutz05 » Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:23 pm


Dickie Dunn
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Postby Dickie Dunn » Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:31 pm

The entire interview he did tonight is insane. Dude is a nutcase.

Freddy Rumsen
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Postby Freddy Rumsen » Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:48 pm

Epic


Gaucho
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Postby Gaucho » Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:11 am

(or more likely monitor 2 as a background while working :) ).
You make a very strong case, mate.

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Postby Freddy Rumsen » Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:17 am


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