5AF Philosophy Thread

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5AF Philosophy Thread

Postby shmenguin » Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:59 pm

So as some may have noticed, I took a bit of a breather. I devoted a lot of the last year to deep introspection. Cut out some of the noise to explore what I wanted out of life and try to find peace.

I discovered determinism in 2011 while struggling to fall asleep one night. I didn’t know it was a theory. I just sort of naturally came to the conclusion that this was the truth. From there, I understood and agreed with the concept, intellectually. But couldn’t apply it to my life emotionally. I think that’s true for almost everyone who subscribes.

But recently, I’ve fought through some terrifying aspects of this worldview and have achieved clarity. I understand what this philosophy means. What truth means. I am applying it to my life without thought. It’s been a revelation. I’m at peace, as much as I ever have been. I’ve been in touch with causality in ways I’ve never thought possible. My OCD and general anxiety arw gone. It’s been prettyyy prettyyy neat.

Still not finished. There are some things i need to polish up a little. But the ride has been real boss lately.

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5AF Philosophy Thread

Postby Freddy Rumsen » Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:07 pm

Sincerely, that's pretty awesome. Congrats.

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5AF Philosophy Thread

Postby shmenguin » Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:31 pm

Thank you Freddy.

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Postby count2infinity » Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:50 pm

I am not. But that was predetermined, so you’re welcome.

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5AF Philosophy Thread

Postby shmenguin » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:06 pm

You technically deserve peace like all sentient beings. Go find it, nerd.

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5AF Philosophy Thread

Postby MalkinIsMyHomeboy » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:29 pm

The determinism vs free will discussion is hugely interesting to me and despite my anxieties I'm somehow not bothered by it. I'm good enough that we have the illusion of free will at the very least so that's why I'm ok with it

What really **** me up is coming to terms with my death. Infinite nothingness doesn't sound fun

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5AF Philosophy Thread

Postby Willie Kool » Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:02 pm

Infinite nothingness doesn't sound fun
It wouldn't be fun. It also wouldn't be not fun. It would be nothing. You wouldn't experience anything, you would merely cease to exist.

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5AF Philosophy Thread

Postby MalkinIsMyHomeboy » Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:58 pm

Infinite nothingness doesn't sound fun
It wouldn't be fun. It also wouldn't be not fun. It would be nothing. You wouldn't experience anything, you would merely cease to exist.
I know, I know

It just scares me. The concept of it

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5AF Philosophy Thread

Postby shmenguin » Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:04 am

You essentially die every night. You blink, and several hours have passed. If you blink, and a millennia has passed, is there any difference? If you blink and never wake up again, it’s the same phenomenon. You just don’t get to debrief yourself afterwards.

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Postby count2infinity » Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:08 am

You technically deserve peace like all sentient beings. Go find it, nerd.
I'm at peace with my life and who I am. I know that's a shocker to some. :lol:

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Postby Freddy Rumsen » Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:03 am

Of course, what if there is not nothingness after death. :slug: #religionthread #imnotgoingtowinthatargument

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Postby shmenguin » Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:33 am

It’s not really an argument. A magic man could snatch me out of the sky. What do I know. But I just play the cards we’re dealt. That’s my best bet.

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Postby shmenguin » Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:38 am

You technically deserve peace like all sentient beings. Go find it, nerd.
I'm at peace with my life and who I am. I know that's a shocker to some. :lol:
You seem that way. I’m not sure why. In that you don’t seem to rely on faith to fill those emotional gaps and don’t seem to subscribe to a specific philosophy in general.

You’re a curious giant. Do you have an idea of what makes you tick or are you just riding the wave?

And if it’s the latter, do you have concerns that deep introspection could compromise that?

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Postby count2infinity » Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:59 am

Riding the wave, man...

Ignorance is bliss when it comes to the big questions of life for me. I fully recognize that I've never taken the time for deep introspection, and I have no need or want to do so. I'm not sure it would compromise the way I am, and I'm not necessarily afraid that it would, I just do not have the need or want within me to do it.

We're all a product of how we're wired and how we're raised. Some combo of those two have created me and how I am. Honestly, I don't think I need to rely on anything to fill emotional gaps because I'm not so sure I have anywhere near the gaps that others have. I consider myself extremely lucky to be in that sort of position. One thing that I do fear is that the day may come where I do have deep emotional gaps that my current way of life cannot handle and what happens from there. I don't have experience dealing with them, so I don't really know how I'll react.

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5AF Philosophy Thread

Postby Kraftster » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:24 am

So as some may have noticed, I took a bit of a breather. I devoted a lot of the last year to deep introspection. Cut out some of the noise to explore what I wanted out of life and try to find peace.

I discovered determinism in 2011 while struggling to fall asleep one night. I didn’t know it was a theory. I just sort of naturally came to the conclusion that this was the truth. From there, I understood and agreed with the concept, intellectually. But couldn’t apply it to my life emotionally. I think that’s true for almost everyone who subscribes.

But recently, I’ve fought through some terrifying aspects of this worldview and have achieved clarity. I understand what this philosophy means. What truth means. I am applying it to my life without thought. It’s been a revelation. I’m at peace, as much as I ever have been. I’ve been in touch with causality in ways I’ve never thought possible. My OCD and general anxiety arw gone. It’s been prettyyy prettyyy neat.

Still not finished. There are some things i need to polish up a little. But the ride has been real boss lately.
Not around here often these days, but I had been wondering what happened to you, was hoping all was okay. Glad to hear it's much better than that! I feel like I'm in a similar place to what you describe here and in some of your other comments. Would enjoy sharing notes sometime.

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5AF Philosophy Thread

Postby shmenguin » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:47 am

So as some may have noticed, I took a bit of a breather. I devoted a lot of the last year to deep introspection. Cut out some of the noise to explore what I wanted out of life and try to find peace.

I discovered determinism in 2011 while struggling to fall asleep one night. I didn’t know it was a theory. I just sort of naturally came to the conclusion that this was the truth. From there, I understood and agreed with the concept, intellectually. But couldn’t apply it to my life emotionally. I think that’s true for almost everyone who subscribes.

But recently, I’ve fought through some terrifying aspects of this worldview and have achieved clarity. I understand what this philosophy means. What truth means. I am applying it to my life without thought. It’s been a revelation. I’m at peace, as much as I ever have been. I’ve been in touch with causality in ways I’ve never thought possible. My OCD and general anxiety arw gone. It’s been prettyyy prettyyy neat.

Still not finished. There are some things i need to polish up a little. But the ride has been real boss lately.
Not around here often these days, but I had been wondering what happened to you, was hoping all was okay. Glad to hear it's much better than that! I feel like I'm in a similar place to what you describe here and in some of your other comments. Would enjoy sharing notes sometime.
when i came back the other week i wanted to figure out how to approach this with you. i think you know this isn't an easy topic to discuss in this fashion. or any, actually. i've made the mistake long ago about trying to walk people through it IRL. they always have the same "good luck with all that" reaction. online it's even harder. so i'm not here to convince.

at a high level, this run started over the summer when i learned that i could depersonalize on demand. looking in the mirror and only seeing machinery is a hell of a thing. about a month ago i went into a bit of an existential tailspin. i had this unexpected surge, where this idea just became an active, subconscious filter on top of almost every one of my thoughts and feelings. and right then, i realized that i was going to spend the next 50 years being misunderstood and alone. but when you're going through hell, keep going. i came out the other side recently. it's been only amazing. it'll go up and down. but he downs have been fewer and further between.

i'm simplifying this a little. i've spent hundreds of hours (if not more) in the last 6 months in deep focus. tracing the root cause of everything i could. so yeah...shoot me a note if you want to know more, or just ask here. i'm an open book.

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5AF Philosophy Thread

Postby shafnutz05 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:31 pm

shmenguin, very enthused to hear you have found a good degree of peace at this stage in your life.

Have you ever been to a therapist? It took me a while to find the right person, but once I did, that has been a complete life changer.

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Postby dodint » Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:38 pm

You essentially die every night. You blink, and several hours have passed. If you blink, and a millennia has passed, is there any difference? If you blink and never wake up again, it’s the same phenomenon. You just don’t get to debrief yourself afterwards.
I used to have the same kind of fear that MiMH has, of the complete empty nothingness.

Then one day when I was deployed I was working out in the gym. Afterwards I just passed out. I could hear background noise just fade out and then *poof* I skipped ahead to when I woke up. Something about experiencing that skip just completely put me at ease about nothingness. It sounds silly but that couple of minutes was a life changing event, I've found a lot more peace because of it.

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Postby shmenguin » Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:12 pm

shmenguin, very enthused to hear you have found a good degree of peace at this stage in your life.

Have you ever been to a therapist? It took me a while to find the right person, but once I did, that has been a complete life changer.
i've went to a phone book therapist for 3 years. the kind you search online for based on whether they take your insurance. it can fall apart fairly quickly when you realize that they:

A) don't have inherent wisdom. they're clinical. they apply variations of the same playbook to their patients. their advice is a broad brush. i was able to manipulate my therapist into taking each session where i wanted it. good if you just need someone to talk to or are in a position where you are open to guidance from a stranger, though.

B) take a quick peek at their notes before the session and just play it by ear from there. they don't study your case and agonize over how to help you. again - they're clinical. they don't have time or need for that. i'm sure some are more vested/effective, but there's no way of knowing until you spend months with them.

from here, i don't need regular therapy, but i'm probably in need of a safety valve if i go too far. i've explored things i shouldn't have and would have been wise to back off. but who is qualified to tell me that? not phone book therapists. when i get in a bad state, it seems to qualify as "existential depression". there are pediatric therapists who specialize in this, but there aren't any who deal with adults, since it's such a rare condition. no money to be made. so i'm over here raw dogging it and hoping for the best. i thiiiink that's good enough, but it would be nice to have that valve. or me and kraftster will become roommates.

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Postby MalkinIsMyHomeboy » Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:21 pm

I wouldn't consider "existential depression" to be that rare. I think I suffer from it too

albeit, I've been seeing a therapist for the last year plus for social anxiety...one thing at a time

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Postby shmenguin » Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:06 pm

I wouldn't consider "existential depression" to be that rare. I think I suffer from it too

albeit, I've been seeing a therapist for the last year plus for social anxiety...one thing at a time
it's an unofficial term. suffice to say, i don't think we have the same problems.

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Postby shafnutz05 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:42 pm

Yeah I tried three therapists. The guy I see now is 40 and has kids, so he can relate to my life situation. I was about to give up therapy but now I've been seeing him for over a year.

I do agree there are plenty of phone book therapists that suck.

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5AF Philosophy Thread

Postby Kraftster » Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:26 pm

Have been crushing on this speech lately.


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Postby shmenguin » Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:17 am

Have been crushing on this speech lately.

This is where I was stuck for a long time. Intellectually acknowledging that every sentient being deserves compassion. I'd call it phase 2 determinism (phase 1 being the overall acknowledgement that there is no free will). But I had to think to feel it. Especially as you start to deal with worse and worse actors. Did Hitler deserve to suffer, even at the end? Does anyone deserve punitive measures, just for the sake of punishment?

The answer is no. But it hurt my brain to come to that conclusion. I also had to "think" to deal with the tedium and frustrations like the grocery store example.

It's different now. It's automatic, without thought. I have 3 things that I still struggle with. The 1st is when those stressors hit me simultaneously. There's a clash with the abilities of my brain to multi-thread. I think it's actually a physical response, that I hope to improve. The 2nd is SERIOUS emotional trauma. I've never experienced it. Hope I never will. But there are things that I think I won't handle. I know that a guy who murders a family still deserves peace. But if he murders mine? I doubt I'll see it that way, emotionally. The 3rd is physical pain. I have a health issue where I feel it to some degree constantly. And every single day, it ramps up to significant levels. It's manageable, but it's interference. Sort of like issue 1. Where my brain is not wired to handle multiple resource requests.

So shmenguin, you arrogant prick, how did you do this?

I "pushed through" in ways that are hard to describe. My *exercise routine* that I use to stay centered, comes with visualizations. Consider your identity. You are a network. Like a computer system. Workstations all over your brain, connected by fiber optics. Each working on its own task, but joined. Now think of a wire mesh interwoven into the flesh, like a network diagram. Each sparking when different thoughts and ideas happen. Some move your body. Some give you warm and fuzzies.

Now consider other people. They have the same broad infrastructure. And like any info system, the quality/performance of the system architecture varies, network-to-network. But are they Facebook and you're Twitter? No. You're more of a single, international company. You have a New York office. A Tokyo office. etc. "Nodes". Each office has a firewall that only allows so much access to other
nodes. Different data privacy standards. Different, outdated hardware, different data backup policies.

A rare romantic moment in all of this is realizing that inter-connectivity. We are part of one, single, information system. But there's certainly autonomy, and no central guidance from corporate. So we are and we aren't alone.

I was walking to the train in philly yesterday. It was funny seeing people bop along with this in mind.

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5AF Philosophy Thread

Postby Kraftster » Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:08 pm

Have been crushing on this speech lately.

This is where I was stuck for a long time. Intellectually acknowledging that every sentient being deserves compassion. I'd call it phase 2 determinism (phase 1 being the overall acknowledgement that there is no free will). But I had to think to feel it. Especially as you start to deal with worse and worse actors. Did Hitler deserve to suffer, even at the end? Does anyone deserve punitive measures, just for the sake of punishment?

The answer is no. But it hurt my brain to come to that conclusion. I also had to "think" to deal with the tedium and frustrations like the grocery store example.

It's different now. It's automatic, without thought. I have 3 things that I still struggle with. The 1st is when those stressors hit me simultaneously. There's a clash with the abilities of my brain to multi-thread. I think it's actually a physical response, that I hope to improve. The 2nd is SERIOUS emotional trauma. I've never experienced it. Hope I never will. But there are things that I think I won't handle. I know that a guy who murders a family still deserves peace. But if he murders mine? I doubt I'll see it that way, emotionally. The 3rd is physical pain. I have a health issue where I feel it to some degree constantly. And every single day, it ramps up to significant levels. It's manageable, but it's interference. Sort of like issue 1. Where my brain is not wired to handle multiple resource requests.

So shmenguin, you arrogant prick, how did you do this?

I "pushed through" in ways that are hard to describe. My *exercise routine* that I use to stay centered, comes with visualizations. Consider your identity. You are a network. Like a computer system. Workstations all over your brain, connected by fiber optics. Each working on its own task, but joined. Now think of a wire mesh interwoven into the flesh, like a network diagram. Each sparking when different thoughts and ideas happen. Some move your body. Some give you warm and fuzzies.

Now consider other people. They have the same broad infrastructure. And like any info system, the quality/performance of the system architecture varies, network-to-network. But are they Facebook and you're Twitter? No. You're more of a single, international company. You have a New York office. A Tokyo office. etc. "Nodes". Each office has a firewall that only allows so much access to other
nodes. Different data privacy standards. Different, outdated hardware, different data backup policies.

A rare romantic moment in all of this is realizing that inter-connectivity. We are part of one, single, information system. But there's certainly autonomy, and no central guidance from corporate. So we are and we aren't alone.

I was walking to the train in philly yesterday. It was funny seeing people bop along with this in mind.
This is probably a rehash, but your phase 2 comment made me think back to one of my favorite Wait But Why posts.

https://waitbutwhy.com/2014/10/religion ... gious.html

I have never visualized in quite the granular way you describe, but I can definitely relate to your comments on the individual level. When I started meditating, I felt like I unlocked an ability to source things in my brain, that previously I would have just acted upon without thought (this actually started a little bit with emotions when I started getting into stoicism, but it was confined to emotions and wasn't quite the same). When I would get an impulse or a thought, I felt like I could "trace the cord to the wall," was how I put it.

I really saw that it had become automatic one day in a meeting where I was discussing a difficult legal issue with my partner. I felt what was almost a foreign sensation in my gut and realized it was the physical indication of a deviation from my flat-line emotional status that I prefer, especially when engaging in legal argumentation. I reported aloud, "I just want to let you know that I am feeling an emotion arise in my stomach, so I may not be engaging in this discussion in a purely rational way as we continue."

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