VA news crew shot to death on live TV

[willeyeam]

There are other cities that have much higher rates of gun violence (I think NOLA is off the chart in this regard), but the same analytics apply; the overwhelming majority of gun crimes are committed with illegally obtained weapons.

That's my problem with outlawing guns. Those that want guns are going to get them. However, those that get them for self defense, how many cases per year are there of that being the case? Honest question, I just don't really know where I stand on this issue anymore. I'd like for hunters to be able to hunt. I'd like to have one to feel safe, but I don't know if it's worth it.

[shmenguin]

Instead of focusing efforts at the probably less than 1% of shootings perpetrated by someone using a legally purchased and possessed firearm, I'd rather expend the energy and political capitol on addressing the other 99%.

like this:

Legalize all drugs

and the energy and political capitol that goes into the DEA is independent of the ATF, i imagine, so you can still throttle gun ownership in the suburbs and address the underlying causes of gang violence in the cities

[shmenguin]

There are other cities that have much higher rates of gun violence (I think NOLA is off the chart in this regard), but the same analytics apply; the overwhelming majority of gun crimes are committed with illegally obtained weapons.

That's my problem with outlawing guns. Those that want guns are going to get them. However, those that get them for self defense, how many cases per year are there of that being the case? Honest question, I just don't really know where I stand on this issue anymore. I'd like for hunters to be able to hunt. I'd like to have one to feel safe, but I don't know if it's worth it.

in a world where guns are outlawed, the vast, vast majority of enthusiasts that currently play by the rules aren't going to get them anymore. they're done. but the ones who get them illegally now (but not the ones like adams lanza) will still get them - yes.

[dodint]

Source of the post In fact, to really piss off the right/libertarians we could tax the crap out of it to pay for the increased county level background checks, lol

In the same way all the proceeds from the turnpike go back to the turnpike, right?

Source of the post Which again, disenfranchises the poor/disabled/elderly.

Yup. If you're going to try and sell me that a FREE ID card prevents people from voting because of the cost you'll never convince that a several hundred dollar process to be granted permission to exercise your constitutional right to a firearm isn't a prohibitive burden.

[tifosi77]

However, those that get them for self defense, how many cases per year are there of that being the case? Honest question, I just don't really know where I stand on this issue anymore.

The statistics on self-defense usage are very unreliable. The estimates range from a couple hundred thousand instances a year to a couple million. That obviously include incidents where no shots are fired, which I'm sure dwarfs the number of times an armed citizen shoots a criminal.

[shmenguin]

Source of the post Which again, disenfranchises the poor/disabled/elderly.

Yup. If you're going to try and sell me that a FREE ID card prevents people from voting because of the cost you'll never convince that a several hundred dollar process to be granted permission to exercise your constitutional right to a firearm isn't a prohibitive burden.

isn't buying a gun already a several hundred dollar process?

it's a commercial product. it has a cost. it is implicitly discriminatory to the disadvantaged. this additional cost escalates it, but we're not creating a new concept here.

[dodint]

In NC, the permit is $5 and the FFL fee is usually $10-30. Plus the cost of the weapon. Decent reliable pistols start around $300 new. You're trying to add $500 on top of that.

In PA, you can gift a pistol to a family member for free. This is why I own a Tec-9, it was a gift from my FIL to my wife, and now it's in our gun safe. Are you proposing that my wife should have paid $500 for her evaluation and background checks, in this situation? Serious question.

[willeyeam]

There are other cities that have much higher rates of gun violence (I think NOLA is off the chart in this regard), but the same analytics apply; the overwhelming majority of gun crimes are committed with illegally obtained weapons.

That's my problem with outlawing guns. Those that want guns are going to get them. However, those that get them for self defense, how many cases per year are there of that being the case? Honest question, I just don't really know where I stand on this issue anymore. I'd like for hunters to be able to hunt. I'd like to have one to feel safe, but I don't know if it's worth it.

in a world where guns are outlawed, the vast, vast majority of enthusiasts that currently play by the rules aren't going to get them anymore. they're done. but the ones who get them illegally now (but not the ones like adams lanza) will still get them - yes.

Right, so what's the point? You save a few incidents per year, but take away a hobby and the idea of feeling safe from millions.. Worth it? I don't know, feels weird balancing those kinds of things

Also, any studies done showing what crime would be with less guns? I feel like there could be more burglaries and such without the possibility of the owner having a gun

[shmenguin]

In NC, the permit is $5 and the FFL fee is usually $10-30. Plus the cost of the weapon. Decent reliable pistols start around $300 new. You're trying to add $500 on top of that.

In PA, you can gift a pistol to a family member for free. This is why I own a Tec-9, it was a gift from my FIL to my wife, and now it's in our gun safe. Are you proposing that my wife should have paid $500 for her evaluation and background checks, in this situation? Serious question.

no. i'm proposing she pay at least twice that for a license (or you pay it. whatever). the background check should be much cheaper. you should not have to invest a lot of money in an application process.

[shmenguin]

Right, so what's the point? You save a few incidents per year, but take away a hobby and the idea of feeling safe from millions.. Worth it?

to me, yes.

Also, any studies done showing what crime would be with less guns? I feel like there could be more burglaries and such without the possibility of the owner having a gun

both sides can show studies that say whatever they want them to

[mikey]

Doesn't DC have anti-gun laws...? That place is a cesspool for crime...

[tifosi77]

I feel like there could be more burglaries and such without the possibility of the owner having a gun

When the handgun bans in the UK and Australia went into effect, nearly all other violent and property crimes skyrocketed. Seriously, there was like a 40% increase in muggings in the UK, and iirc home invasion robberies (which occur when the resident is actually in the home) are now more common than burglaries. And - surprise surprise - since the ban went into effect, gun crime in the UK is up by about 90%. In certain pockets of the country, there has been a 500% increase.

These aren't apples-apples comparisons, but they are the most recent examples of what happened in Western countries when they more or less banned private ownership of handguns.

[dodint]

Source of the post you should not have to invest a lot of money in an application process.

That's considerate, since you plan to find psychologists that deny everyone anyway.

I know I'm not going to turn your opinion. I'm not trying to. The reason I dialogue with you on this is because my views on gun ownership are changing and I'm trying to consider this from many angles. Unfortunately, your stance is so far anti-gun it's not meaningful for anyone. You mock gun toting 2A'ers, but your position is just as irrational on the other side. I don't know if you're doing this on purpose in the hopes of finding a compromise closer to your side of the middle, or if you're just hard-lining to be an argumentative stick in the mud. Either way I can't learn from you.

[PFiDC]

Doesn't DC have anti-gun laws...? That place is a cesspool for crime...

16.5 gun murders per 100,000 residents. Ranks #1 in the USA by a long shot. They also have the lowest gun ownership rates in the USA at 3.6%. Conversely, Wyoming has a gun ownership rate of almost 60% and had the 3rd lowest number of gun murders per 100k residents in 2010.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_viole ... s_by_state

It should be noted that the statistics on that link can be used by anyone on any side of this argument to prove their point.

[shmenguin]

Source of the post you should not have to invest a lot of money in an application process.

That's considerate, since you plan to find psychologists that deny everyone anyway.

i don't have an opinion on the psychologist thing, other than that if there's a side affect of rejecting more applicants, i'm ok with it. i don't "plan on" anything. it's not part of any of my ideas.

I know I'm not going to turn your opinion. I'm not trying to. The reason I dialogue with you on this is because my views on gun ownership are changing and I'm trying to consider this from many angles. Unfortunately, your stance is so far anti-gun it's not meaningful for anyone. You mock gun toting 2A'ers, but your position is just as irrational on the other side. I don't know if you're doing this on purpose in the hopes of finding a compromise closer to your side of the middle, or if you're just hard-lining to be an argumentative stick in the mud. Either way I can't learn from you.

TIL that on the internet, you're supposed to change your opinion for the sake of enlightening others.

i'm not trolling. this is my opinion. if i don't respect the 2nd amendment, it is what it is. if i also don't think it's important that your right to own a gun is protected, it is what it is.

my opinion used to be something else. it evolved. and here's where it ended up. just because you haven't arrived at your own destination yet doesn't mean everyone else is supposed to be on the journey with you.

[dodint]

Like I said, I'm not trying to change yours. You can't deal with extremists.

[shafnutz05]

Has anyone talked about his racial identity as as the key driver if this shooting? This guy was so convinced he was the victim of institutional racism, he felt justified in gunning two young people down in cold blood.

With prominent voices like Deray McKesson out there inflaming racial tensions, should we be that surprised that this guy felt compelled to dish out some racial justice on his own terms? I think this incident is far more about race than it is gun control.

Rushing to the gun control debate omits a far less palatable problem that is growing, IMO. I saw another video yesterday of a black man and woman ambushing a white woman outside a grocery store and proceeding to stomp her body mercilessly before taking her belongings.

I fully expect more racially driven incidents in the future, because the flames are only being fanned.

[Algernon]

Legalize all drugs

#HalotestinAndEquipose4All

[mikey]

Has anyone talked about his racial identity as as the key driver if this shooting? This guy was so convinced he was the victim of institutional racism, he felt justified in gunning two young people down in cold blood.

With prominent voices like Deray McKesson out there inflaming racial tensions, should we be that surprised that this guy felt compelled to dish out some racial justice on his own terms? I think this incident is far more about race than it is gun control.

Rushing to the gun control debate omits a far less palatable problem that is growing, IMO. I saw another video yesterday of a black man and woman ambushing a white woman outside a grocery store and proceeding to stomp her body mercilessly before taking her belongings.

I fully expect more racially driven incidents in the future, because the flames are only being fanned.

You mean reverse racism...?

[shafnutz05]

Yup. I feel like that issue is being completely glossed over, in favor of lower hanging fruit like gun control.

[Craig]

So was this guy a minority?

[dodint]

So was this guy a minority?

[shmenguin]

Has anyone talked about his racial identity as as the key driver if this shooting? This guy was so convinced he was the victim of institutional racism, he felt justified in gunning two young people down in cold blood.

he's had these thoughts since at least 2007. is all this BLM stuff the straw that broke the camel's back? maybe, but i doubt it. regardless, it's still just a straw.

[shmenguin]

Yup. I feel like that issue is being completely glossed over, in favor of lower hanging fruit like gun control.

i avoided the gun debate until it was evoked by the "other side"

[Craig]

So was this guy a minority?

Answer the question.