Politics And Current Events

[tifosi77]

The issue is guaranteed federal loans. The fact that you can get a loan at 6.8% or whatever to spend 300k to be an art history major enables these institutions to jack prices up. It's predatory IMO.

This example always cracks me up.

One, what university charges $300k in tuition for an art history BA? Two, do you have any idea how few humanities degrees - never mind specific to 'art history' - are given out each year? It's something like less than 1/2 of 1%. As of last year, CompSci majors have a higher unemployment rate than Fine Arts and Performing Arts.

Somehow 'art history' has become this fetishized boogeyman for the evils of higher education, little more than an avatar for "Starbuck's barista'".

[CBear3]

The funny thing is that raising the minimum wage helps fix the issue "needing" to go to college to earn any kind of money. Your $300k art majors are afraid that if they don't go to school they'll be stuck at Starbucks making $8.50 the rest of their life. At a living wage they can actually work 40 a week, get out of their parents' house, and not try to decide WTH they're going to do with the rest of their life at 18.

[Morkle]

How many of these zookeeper/art major bellyaches are actually legit? I feel like the majority of people that are in the situation I described have normal jobs with normal degrees and just spend ten years paying it back because it's so damn expensive

I guess my problem overall, is that I don't know if we should personally hand-hold people for making personally bad financial decisions or personal decisions that affect them later in life.

I don't know. I'm on board with the idea of loan-forgiveness. I'm just not on-board with correcting mistakes that were made by choices.

I also don't think you can pick or choose, which is why I'd probably be more in favor of supporting a UBI more than loan forgiveness.

[NAN]

oops

Keep that hockey **** out of here jerk.

[Morkle]

The funny thing is that raising the minimum wage helps fix the issue "needing" to go to college to earn any kind of money. Your $300k art majors are afraid that if they don't go to school they'll be stuck at Starbucks making $8.50 the rest of their life. At a living wage they can actually work 40 a week, get out of their parents' house, and not try to decide WTH they're going to do with the rest of their life at 18.

I actually find it interesting and telling. My father was an industry worker making $30-40K (mom was part-time, so I assume wasn't great money) for the entirety of his working life. We as a family survived on that mostly. They have a house, nice land, etc.

$30-40K a year now, is pretty laughable, and won't get you near what my parents were able to get over the years.

[King Colby]

The issue is guaranteed federal loans. The fact that you can get a loan at 6.8% or whatever to spend 300k to be an art history major enables these institutions to jack prices up. It's predatory IMO.

This example always cracks me up.

One, what university charges $300k in tuition for an art history BA? Two, do you have any idea how few humanities degrees - never mind specific to 'art history' - are given out each year? It's something like less than 1/2 of 1%. As of last year, CompSci majors have a higher unemployment rate than Fine Arts and Performing Arts.

Somehow 'art history' has become this fetishized boogeyman for the evils of higher education, little more than an avatar for "Starbuck's barista'".

It's a fake example dude. A parody. A satire.

If that's how we're grading it, I probably would have keyed in on the fact that my aforementioned 60k/year college has an education program.

[King Colby]

Why should the government guarantee a loan for someone to pay 60k a year to achieve what they could have for 20?

[NAN]

The issue is guaranteed federal loans. The fact that you can get a loan at 6.8% or whatever to spend 300k to be an art history major enables these institutions to jack prices up. It's predatory IMO.

This example always cracks me up.

One, what university charges $300k in tuition for an art history BA? Two, do you have any idea how few humanities degrees - never mind specific to 'art history' - are given out each year? It's something like less than 1/2 of 1%. As of last year, CompSci majors have a higher unemployment rate than Fine Arts and Performing Arts.

Somehow 'art history' has become this fetishized boogeyman for the evils of higher education, little more than an avatar for "Starbuck's barista'".

I was just making up a degree and amount and it wasn't meant to be specific. Just a generalization of bad degrees at a high cost.

[dodint]

My industry has a bottleneck on the back end. You can go to school for 7 years and then fail the bar exam because the profession is gate-kept by those that want to ensure there is enough legal work to go around for those already in the club.
I know why it wouldn't work, but it'd be great if colleges could align their enrollments to bottleneck things at the beginning. That would take a coordinated effort and a desire to be driven by more than profits, though.

[shafnutz05]

My industry has a bottleneck on the back end. You can go to school for 7 years and then fail the bar exam because the profession is gate-kept by those that want to ensure there is enough legal work to go around for those already in the club.
I know why it wouldn't work, but it'd be great if colleges could align their enrollments to bottleneck things at the beginning. That would take a coordinated effort and a desire to be driven by more than profits, though.

Wasn't there an issue shortly around or after the recession where a ton of people were going into law school and the market was completely saturated? Even for people that passed the bar?

[dodint]

I think that's been corrected in part by boomers that are leaving the profession. Which has been somewhat accelerated by the younger generation adopting remote technology in a way that the older generation hasn't comprehended.

There has been a lot of talk about 'Of Counsel' agreements where an older solo or small firm attorney will bring on younger associates and share resources, but not make them actually part of the firm. It's a way of adapting without having to completely buy in. I'm Of Counsel to a DC firm, but for slightly different reasons.

[Troy Loney]

I think we need to consider the market motives that influence the higher education fields.

Humanities have always been a major aspect of higher education. Is the actual field of study the problem here? It is not, aside from the technical fields like accounting and computers, people with history and psychology degrees were filling white collar jobs. It used to mean something to be able to complete college degree, so merely obtaining the degree was a demonstration to employers that you were a competent individual. It would be the job of the employer to train the employee to perform the specific job. Do you think that's the case now? Do you honestly think we demonstrated any particular acumen in bumbling our way through college in the 21st century? Honestly, just showing up guarantees you complete your degree in 4 years. So employers know that, that's why they require folks to demonstrate additional aptitudes.

But where do colleges fit in here, why are they just pushing out an endless stream of unimpressive graduates? Maybe because they have no incentive to fail kids, weed out dummies, or tighten admission standards. They just want the bodies, making the degree less meaningful, thus the additional demands for masters degrees.

Capitalism is a racket.

[NTP66]

There was a shift back to requiring a BS in InfoTech a few years ago, after a long period of the degree not being a hard requirement. Ironically enough, in my view, this has attracted far less technical staff, which can set departments back a bit.

[NAN]

So employers know that, that's why they require folks to demonstrate additional aptitudes.

I know in my case, a 4 your degree in accounting would have gotten my an ok job, but not where I wanted to be. So I had to pass the CPA exam and also work 4-5 years at a big 4 accounting firm to eventually get the job I wanted.

But you are correct in that a 4 year degree is not longer the thing that opens doors for the average worker. You either need your MBA, doctorine, or a professional certification to take that "next step".

Another thing, at least at my company, which is global, in order to get past a certain point, they want you to move around the world and get experience in certain regions of the world for X number of years. I'm not willing to do that, so there isn't really a ton more upward mobility for me, which I'm fine with.

[King Colby]

Honestly many college degrees are just high school the sequel at this point. Except you get to drink more and **** more.

[King Colby]

So employers know that, that's why they require folks to demonstrate additional aptitudes.

I know in my case, a 4 your degree in accounting would have gotten my an ok job, but not where I wanted to be. So I had to pass the CPA exam and also work 4-5 years at a big 4 accounting firm to eventually get the job I wanted.

But you are correct in that a 4 year degree is not longer the thing that opens doors for the average worker. You either need your MBA, doctorine, or a professional certification to take that "next step".

Another thing, at least at my company, which is global, in order to get past a certain point, they want you to move around the world and get experience in certain regions of the world for X number of years. I'm not willing to do that, so there isn't really a ton more upward mobility for me, which I'm fine with.

So glad you've finally achieved your goal of being a mush brained middle manager.

[tifosi77]

I mean, I can't speak for your high school experience..........

[King Colby]

I mean, I can't speak for your high school experience..........

I said MORE. there's only so much I could get away with in my parents basement and I certainly pushed the envelope.

[shmenguin]

Building character...mush brain.

[Freddy Rumsen]

I think we need to consider the market motives that influence the higher education fields.

Humanities have always been a major aspect of higher education. Is the actual field of study the problem here? It is not, aside from the technical fields like accounting and computers, people with history and psychology degrees were filling white collar jobs. It used to mean something to be able to complete college degree, so merely obtaining the degree was a demonstration to employers that you were a competent individual. It would be the job of the employer to train the employee to perform the specific job. Do you think that's the case now? Do you honestly think we demonstrated any particular acumen in bumbling our way through college in the 21st century? Honestly, just showing up guarantees you complete your degree in 4 years. So employers know that, that's why they require folks to demonstrate additional aptitudes.

But where do colleges fit in here, why are they just pushing out an endless stream of unimpressive graduates? Maybe because they have no incentive to fail kids, weed out dummies, or tighten admission standards. They just want the bodies, making the degree less meaningful, thus the additional demands for masters degrees.

Capitalism is a racket.

Most non-state, non-Ivy colleges (as DG can attest) are struggling to stay open. The only reason they can is because of Federal loan-guarantee programs.

#Capitalism

[tifosi77]

Another thing, at least at my company, which is global, in order to get past a certain point, they want you to move around the world and get experience in certain regions of the world for X number of years. I'm not willing to do that, so there isn't really a ton more upward mobility for me, which I'm fine with.

This is how we ended up in San Francisco. In order to progress up the food chain in her company, Mrs Tif had certain boxes she had to check, one of which was working as a District Manager. We were planning on her going for an expected opening in Seattle, but about 6 months before that materialized the SF job came up unexpectedly. She was referred for that role internally, and about 3 weeks later she got the gig, and we moved about 3 months after that.

The role she's in now has a global reach, so when things are things again she can be sent all over the damn place for a week or two here and there. Opens up travel opportunities for us, which is nice...... I mean, you know, theoretically.

[Troy Loney]

I think we need to consider the market motives that influence the higher education fields.

Humanities have always been a major aspect of higher education. Is the actual field of study the problem here? It is not, aside from the technical fields like accounting and computers, people with history and psychology degrees were filling white collar jobs. It used to mean something to be able to complete college degree, so merely obtaining the degree was a demonstration to employers that you were a competent individual. It would be the job of the employer to train the employee to perform the specific job. Do you think that's the case now? Do you honestly think we demonstrated any particular acumen in bumbling our way through college in the 21st century? Honestly, just showing up guarantees you complete your degree in 4 years. So employers know that, that's why they require folks to demonstrate additional aptitudes.

But where do colleges fit in here, why are they just pushing out an endless stream of unimpressive graduates? Maybe because they have no incentive to fail kids, weed out dummies, or tighten admission standards. They just want the bodies, making the degree less meaningful, thus the additional demands for masters degrees.

Capitalism is a racket.

Most non-state, non-Ivy colleges (as DG can attest) are struggling to stay open. The only reason they can is because of Federal loan-guarantee programs.

#Capitalism

Yeah, supply and demand disequilibrium. And schools like CMU have trouble when the international student pipeline is cutoff.

I think a lot of the struggling schools are feeling the impact of the lack of return on the investment from the students. It took probably 10-20 years to get back aligned, but that level of student that was just being fed into the collegiate pipeline that would not obtain any improvement to their job prospects are finally beginning to understand that.

Also, those of us with boomer parents grew up just assuming that college was non-negotiable. Subsequent generations of parents aren't going to see college that way and aren't going to be forcing their kids to pursue that route.

But, as always, it's either dumb consumers or the governments fault. As opposed to capitalist incentives not working with things like education and job preparation.

[shmenguin]

so the issue is that the small businesses on main street have to close because the owners can't afford to pay their staff. ok...so close the businesses. i can buy chachkies or a turkey sandwich somewhere else, and if you were important to the community, you'd have enough customers that you'd be able to participate in the economy rather than pretending to participate. and why did you open a chachkie shop next to a dozen other chachkie shops to begin with?

this doesn't mean shmenguin hopes everything turns into walmart. it's a regrettable thing, but you either have to subsidize wages or close down non-viable businesses. take your pick. the answer isn't to remove welfare to make people go back making 8 bucks an hour doing a job that's less pleasant than whatever we all do. i'd prefer that a proper wealth tax and subsidization system were in place, so that capitalism could be more egalitarian, but the way the economy is structured means businesses close - not the whims of liberals.

[NAN]

So glad you've finally achieved your goal of being a mush brained middle manager.

[mikey]

No, I just want to be able to have a good faith discussion instead of you dinguses coming in here with "Oh lefties just want free stuff" or "Lefties must only want big companies to be successful" bullshit.

Oh come on hahaha