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shmenguin
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Postby shmenguin » Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:22 am

It's a shame what a reputation will do to a company.
yes yes, fair enough.

they also don't do themselves any favors by treating self-driving as imminent. highways and cities-only for another decade, I reckon

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Postby dodint » Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:30 am

My only axe to grind with Tesla is that their service practices are really incompatible with lemon laws in a way that makes them open to legal action. I don't think it matters so much right now because many Tesla owners enjoy being in the cult of it so they'll put up with the unusual service model. But if they ever do get widespread market share to a more general customer they're going to need to tighten that up. But I suppose that broader market share will come with more service centers which will help.

I do admire their direct-to-consumer sales model and I hope that takes hold with traditional manufacturers over time.

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Postby shmenguin » Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:33 am

My only axe to grind with Tesla is that their service practices are really incompatible with lemon laws in a way that makes them open to legal action. I don't think it matters so much right now because many Tesla owners enjoy being in the cult of it so they'll put up with the unusual service model. But if they ever do get widespread market share to a more general customer they're going to need to tighten that up. But I suppose that broader market share will come with more service centers which will help.

I do admire their direct-to-consumer sales model and I hope that takes hold with traditional manufacturers over time.
well...we put up with the unusual service model because the car doesn't need serviced.

i don't go on Tesla message boards and buy Tesla decals to Tesla-out my Tesla. i'm in the cult because it's superior to any other car i've ever driven on virtually every level.

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Postby dodint » Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:36 am

Are you prepared to talk about this or are you just going to rah-rah your way through it?

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Postby DigitalGypsy66 » Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:38 am

Getting some Subaru Brat vibes from this Hyundai Santa Cruz

Image

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Postby dodint » Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:51 am

Are you prepared to talk about this or are you just going to rah-rah your way through it?
I'll do it for the benefit of everyone anyway. It's so rare that I get to contribute anything of value.

In PA, one part of the Lemon Law requires that the manufacturer/dealer/servicer can't have the car for more the 30 days, cumulative, to cure a defect:
Section 6. Presumption of a reasonable number of attempts.

(a) General rule.--It shall be presumed that a reasonable number of attempts have been undertaken to repair or correct a nonconformity if:

(1) the same nonconformity has been subject to repair three times by the manufacturer, its agents or authorized dealers and the nonconformity still exists; or

(2) the vehicle is out-of-service by reason of any nonconformity for a cumulative total of 30 or more calendar days.
Tesla has the practice of taking defective customer cars and shipping them off to regional service centers for extended periods of time. Presumably, because they don't have the resources at each showroom to handle extensive repairs. The customer is usually given a loaner car that is similar or better than what they have so it's generally not a big deal. By the letter of the lemon law, if the customer chooses to file an action after 30 cumulative days of their car being away they're entitled to a buyback or replacement.
Section 5. Manufacturer's duty for refund or replacement.
If the manufacturer fails to repair or correct a nonconformity after a reasonable number of attempts, the manufacturer shall, at the option of the purchaser, replace the motor vehicle with a comparable motor vehicle of equal value or accept return of the vehicle from the purchaser and refund to the purchaser the full purchase price or lease price, including all collateral charges, less a reasonable allowance for the purchaser's use of the vehicle not exceeding 10¢ per mile driven or 10% of the purchase price or lease price of the vehicle, whichever is less.
Tesla has been pretty aggressive in opposing those suits. Again, I think they'll grow into it over time and just haven't reached that maturity level yet. But in the meantime they're exposed to this kind of litigation.

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Postby shmenguin » Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:24 am

What if I said it wasn’t rah rah and that’s all genuinely true? I never used to like driving and now I look for reasons to drive. I doubt that’s a phenomenon that is familiar to most people. It’s a big experience to go through, which drives the cult-like enthusiasm.

Lemon laws and service issues are things people don’t think about until they have to. You’re a more discerning consumer than most, I think. Are they issues? Yes. Should Tesla do better? Yes. Does it impact buyer satisfaction? It doesn’t appear so. And buyer satisfaction is sort of the main consideration for any product.

I dunno...there are pros and cons. The cons seem to impact a small percentage of customers so most of us are like, “All pros, woo hoo!!!”. You may relate to this as a libertarian ;)

I know people who don’t like the feel of EV’s. And I know other people who just like to poo poo topics like Tesla because of a general annoyance with the cult. And others don’t like the specific UX of Tesla. I respect all those points of view, but I’m not part of the cult. If a better option comes along i’ll switch. Screw the brand. Don’t care about it and I hate Elon musk as a dude.

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Postby dodint » Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:40 am

My exact words were: My only axe to grind with Tesla is that their service practices are really incompatible with lemon laws in a way that makes them open to legal action.

You keep talking about user experience and cults. The only reason I said 'cult' at all was because it speaks directly to why the negatives of their service model doesn't hurt their bottom line; the user base accepts the defective process to enable their enjoyment of the brand. If each time a Toyota Corolla broke down it disappeared for 4-6 weeks you'd hear endless shrieking.

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Postby dodint » Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:44 am

Incidentally, as a car guy I'm really happy you're happy. Consumer car culture is pretty much dead and to see people excited about any car is great.

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Postby shmenguin » Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:04 pm

My exact words were: My only axe to grind with Tesla is that their service practices are really incompatible with lemon laws in a way that makes them open to legal action.

You keep talking about user experience and cults. The only reason I said 'cult' at all was because it speaks directly to why the negatives of their service model doesn't hurt their bottom line; the user base accepts the defective process to enable their enjoyment of the brand. If each time a Toyota Corolla broke down it disappeared for 4-6 weeks you'd hear endless shrieking.
That’s all reasonable but it’s not a matter of acceptance or overlooking...these things just don’t enter the equation, so there’s a level of ignorance involved.

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Postby dodint » Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:06 pm

Well now we're talking about Apple users.

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Postby shmenguin » Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:22 pm

I think that I’m part of a group that thinks car buying has always been like shopping for wine. All the bottles look the same and are described the same, and it takes deeper expertise than I’m up for to suss out the differences. You’re up for the suss, so you have broader criteria. Us Tesla boys are absolutely not a sophisticated demographic. These cars fit that profile like a glove.

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Postby dodint » Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:33 pm

Image
Steve McQueen showing Sonny, Cher, Twiggy, and Dino Martin his 1957 Jaguar XKSS, 1967

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Postby shmenguin » Mon Apr 26, 2021 5:46 pm

Tesla with half a billion of net income this quarter. That’s a long way from not being able to build a profitable model 3.

I wonder how much of a moat their overall UX is. Like...is there any IP infringement if VW adopts the tablet control center with no other gauges?

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Postby Sam's Drunk Dog » Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:58 pm

Speaking of Tesla, apparently their cars are garbage.



Not sure how much of that is true.

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Postby shmenguin » Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:16 pm

“If it breaks, it’s gonna be a problem, but I will now list nothing about what the car is actually like, other than using the wrong terminology about “auto pilot”.”

Teslas are fun as f*** and they’re awesome unless they break. Which isn’t some epidemic. I know many owners personally and none of them ever had an issue like in this thread.

It’s a dumb thread that focuses on niche experiences and doesn’t actually talk about the experience of owning/driving one.

“Autopilot” is not autonomous driving. It’s advanced cruise control which is simply amazing. “Full self driving” is the 10k add on nobody buys and nobody thinks is actually “self driving”. The car yells at you and shuts down if you treat it as such.

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Postby NTP66 » Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:19 pm

I only know a few Tesla owners, and it’s a mix of good and iffy satisfaction. Both say their cars are a little unrefined in some areas, one mentioning wind noise. I know overspray was pretty common, especially under the hood. I’d still bet on them being better build quality than most Ford and GM.

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Postby dodint » Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:57 pm

To be fair, shmenguin won't acknowledge a Tesla problem until he experiences it himself. But at least he is open about it.

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Postby shmenguin » Tue Apr 27, 2021 7:15 pm

To be fair, shmenguin won't acknowledge a Tesla problem until he experiences it himself. But at least he is open about it.
It’s like...do you like living in America vs Saudi Arabia - even though Ted Cruz is a thing? Yes I do.

Also...if my car breaks and I have to drive 100 miles to a service center and lose my car for a month, I’ll still have the same opinion as today.

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Postby Faftorial » Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:42 pm

When I see one of these on the streets:

Image

I immediately think of this:

Image

shmenguin
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Postby shmenguin » Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:44 pm

This will come as a shock but I like the aesthetics of Model Y, and I like the latest Model 3 design.

The Model X, however, is a ridiculous ridiculous thing.

The S...meh. It’s fine but boring to me.

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Postby NTP66 » Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:15 pm

I keep getting e-mails from PenFed about low interest rates for car loans. 1.04% for a 36-month loan on a new vehicle if you go through their service, which is basically using TrueCar. That'd be enticing if I actually drove anymore.

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Postby dodint » Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:31 pm

Image

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Postby Morkle » Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:45 pm

“If it breaks, it’s gonna be a problem, but I will now list nothing about what the car is actually like, other than using the wrong terminology about “auto pilot”.”

Teslas are fun as f*** and they’re awesome unless they break. Which isn’t some epidemic. I know many owners personally and none of them ever had an issue like in this thread.

It’s a dumb thread that focuses on niche experiences and doesn’t actually talk about the experience of owning/driving one.

“Autopilot” is not autonomous driving. It’s advanced cruise control which is simply amazing. “Full self driving” is the 10k add on nobody buys and nobody thinks is actually “self driving”. The car yells at you and shuts down if you treat it as such.
I think Tesla calling it autopilot was a major mistake and many of the issues that came from it are self-inflicted because of that naming convention, imo.

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Postby shmenguin » Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:01 pm

“If it breaks, it’s gonna be a problem, but I will now list nothing about what the car is actually like, other than using the wrong terminology about “auto pilot”.”

Teslas are fun as f*** and they’re awesome unless they break. Which isn’t some epidemic. I know many owners personally and none of them ever had an issue like in this thread.

It’s a dumb thread that focuses on niche experiences and doesn’t actually talk about the experience of owning/driving one.

“Autopilot” is not autonomous driving. It’s advanced cruise control which is simply amazing. “Full self driving” is the 10k add on nobody buys and nobody thinks is actually “self driving”. The car yells at you and shuts down if you treat it as such.
I think Tesla calling it autopilot was a major mistake and many of the issues that came from it are self-inflicted because of that naming convention, imo.
There's Autopilot and there's Full Self Driving

I think the terminology is fine. After I got on i95, I drove from Philly to DC and only touched my steering wheel when I had to change lanes. I think that captures the spirit of what autopilot should be. It steers for you, so it's not just cruise control. Full Self Driving makes turns, changes lanes, etc. "Full" is doing a lot of work in that it only works, conditionally. So "Limited" self driving would be more appropriate, if a change is needed

all the wet blankets who are scared of AI crack me up. years of science from the world's most brilliant engineers and the only implementation of AI that I think works well is Gmail finishing my sentences. we're so far from actual self driving, and beyond

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