Mike Sullivan

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Postby mikey » Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:14 am

^ lets expand on that

During the "foundation" period, Crosby was at his worst. Letang wasn't far behind. Kunitz same. Maatta too. And Perron. Malkin seemed neutral. Same with kessel. The young d-men who knows. The old vets like Cullen and Fehr are static. Same with bonino.

So what's the theory, here? That all those guys who were at their worst were just trying to figure things out, and then they finally did at, coincidentally, the exact same time Johnston got the boot? That's a good story and man that poor coach...the narrative got all flipped around on him.

This wouldn't have anything to do with a coach on a message board overestimating the legacy of him and his peers, I'm sure.

But I'll listen, if you want to explain more why a bunch of veterans took so long to learn basic hockey - and reconcile that not only with their lousy play but also their lousy attitudes.
- Foundation is relating to fixing the mess that Bylsma left from a hockey perspective. Not perceived level of play of players.

- The theory is that Bylsma left the team in shambles and you need someone that can come in and return the team to some form of actual hockey based in fundamental principles...which we saw before with the Olczyk -> Therrien switch over. Lest we forget.

- Why would I overestimate one at the cost of another? That doesn't make sense. I'm just calling it like I see it, as always...that doesn't make it right, but that also doesn't mean there is some hidden objective to it either...if we all have the memory of a goldfish, then every day is brand new life...

- Johnston returned the team to "center" - he zeroed the scale. The next guy in line from Bylsma had that unenviable task...not surprising that a few guys didn't want the job...it's a tough task because it's a team full of veteran stars that were permitted to run the asylum in a way that the NHL really doesn't see much anymore...and I know that it's "goals or GTFO" out here for the measuring stick of all things, but as much as people point to the "OMG look at how bad everyone was" - really, we got the best defensive effort out of Sidney Crosby in his entire career, the best out of Evgeni Malkin...Crosby did lead the league in points per game despite playing two minutes less per game...Letang still got Norris votes...Hornqvist had the best season of his career...Fleury had the best season of his career (10 shutouts! for a guy that had 28 in the previous 10 years)...so as much as we want to play the doom and gloom card, someone needed to return us back to real hockey. And it sucks. It's not that fun to sit back and play on your heels and re-learn defensive structure and not fly the zone at the hint of possession and go for playing firewagon, off-the-rush hockey to playing a cycling game...tending bar at strip club and then becoming a librarian...it's a shock to the system...and yeah, clearly Sid was not happy and became happy under Sullivan, that's obvious. Clearly, we've gotten better offensively under Sullivan and he's done a good job, no one is taking that away or even suggesting that he's not...but the smear job hints at a lack of knowledge of the progression of things...

If Sullivan was hired first he would have to deal with the same crap...he also wouldn't have been afforded Daley, Schultz, Hagelin, etc. so it would have been the old Ranger breakout that they had under his watch...which was wrap it around the glass and hope it kicks out to someone good on our team...and who knows, maybe it's Johnston that comes in and an unleashes the 5-goal-per-game potential of the team like he did for Portland or like when he helped Markus Naslund become a superstar...towards the end, the last couple weeks before the firing, the team was obviously starting to open things up offensively more, Johnston was trusting his group got the idea and we started to move the puck in a different manner, different NZ routes, etc. and, naturally, it took Sullivan some time to get this group off the ground himself...we were giving up a ton of goals under Sullivan...but now he's righted the ship and good on him...but the team's return to fundamental play, their in-zone coverage schemes, their return to a strong cycling game, the learned box-out principles of the defense should be attributed - to some degree - to Johnston because we weren't doing it under Bylsma and then started under Johnston...it's not the sexiest stuff, but it's the stuff that makes you not lose...I understand that it's not goals and I also understand that Sullivan brought goals...but, surprisingly, there's more to hockey than just goals...

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Mike Sullivan

Postby shmenguin » Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:21 am

goals...yes. it's all about goals. good analysis. no one here is talking about actual wins or having a team that looks like they give a s*it.

and i can't stress enough how important the latter is, as someone who watches sports for entertainment. whatever positives johnston accomplished, he made this team almost unwatchable. and not just because of "derp. i want more goals. derp". it was a bunch of guys who weren't any fun to root for. if you need to sacrifice watchability to implement a winning strategy, go for it. if it takes 100 games, you aren't an NHL coach for a winning team. you are a guy better suited to teach kids or carry a whiteboard next to the grownups.

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Mike Sullivan

Postby columbia » Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:26 am

They appeared to be quite miserable in the waning months of MJ's tenure. Note that is not related to goals. ;)

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Postby mikey » Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:29 am

Those are both fair points. As someone that used to coach in a similar manner: try to win games 0 to negative one and all that...it's not that fun for most players. I don't really do it any more, unless of course the team needs a refresher course on the fundamentals of the game...but that's fair, where was the killer instinct? Where was the swagger? Those are fair points. We were Team Robot under Johnston. I think that's fair.

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Postby shmenguin » Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:29 am

They appeared to be quite miserable in the waning months of MJ's tenure. Note that is not related to goals. ;)
being miserable is part of learning defense in your late 20's. or something

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Postby columbia » Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:35 am

Those are both fair points. As someone that used to coach in a similar manner: try to win games 0 to negative one and all that...it's not that fun for most players. I don't really do it any more, unless of course the team needs a refresher course on the fundamentals of the game...but that's fair, where was the killer instinct? Where was the swagger? Those are fair points. We were Team Robot under Johnston. I think that's fair.
He failed to inspire, which is a deadly sin for any leader.

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Postby mikey » Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:40 am

Are you talking about Crosby or Johnston now...? ;)

It's not like Sid wasn't swept up in the anything-goes Bylsma era...it's not like he put his foot down and said enough is enough after that embarrassment against the Flyers in 2012...and it's not like he helped everyone believe in what MJ was trying to do...some might expect more from Sid than getting Mr. Peanut there fired...
Last edited by mikey on Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby columbia » Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:40 am

:lol: :thumb:

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Postby MalkinIsMyHomeboy » Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:41 am

the absolute best thing about MJ's tenure, and what I think justify's his reasoning for being here, was bringing about Fleury's renaissance.


Two of the top three seasons in terms of save % for Fleury are this year (2nd best for him) and last year (3rd best for him).

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Postby Morkle » Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:43 am

The best thing that's happened to this team, is that when they go down a goal or two, it's not over until the horn sounds.

If they went down even 1 with FHCMJ the game was over, and everyone knew it.

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Postby columbia » Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:45 am

Are you talking about Crosby or Johnston now...? ;)

It's not like Sid wasn't swept up in the anything-goes Bylsma era...it's not like he put his foot down and said enough is enough after that embarrassment against the Flyers in 2012...and it's not like he helped everyone believe in what MJ was trying to do...some might expect more from Sid than getting Mr. Peanut there fired...
Are you calling him a coach killer? :pop: :slug:

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Mike Sullivan

Postby King Colby » Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:47 am

I can't understand why people make comments like "why would a group of age 20-35 year old men need to be led?"

Leader of men applies in all facets of life.

If your boss at work is a loser, is he going to get the most out of all of his employees?

I buy into sullivan more than i ever bought into bylsma. Sullivan has the team playing in a completely different way. They went from unwatchable to enjoyable.

Bylsma IMO was always garbage. He took over the reigns of a good team that just wasnt winning at the perfect time - within his first week they got their #1 defenseman back from injury and acquired their first line LW and RW... as soon as he started asserting his own system the next year it was all downhill

Sullivan took over the reigns of a bad team and made them a good team.

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Postby mikey » Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:48 am

Source of the post Are you calling him a coach killer?
By definition, yes. But he's not a serial killer. So that gets him a pardon I suppose...but Johnston wasn't a strong enough personality and didn't have enough experience to not have the support of his core...or his GM...he was left on an island in a state of transition...he's the easiest to remove of the three entities and draws the short straw after 100 games...he died for Bylsma's sins and I'm sure he'll rise up again in some capacity...then again, I said the same about Guy Boucher...
Last edited by mikey on Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Mike Sullivan

Postby King Colby » Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:48 am

The pens record under johnston was pretty even with where you would expect it based on the on ice product.

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Mike Sullivan

Postby Rocco » Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:03 am

The best thing that's happened to this team, is that when they go down a goal or two, it's not over until the horn sounds.

If they went down even 1 with FHCMJ the game was over, and everyone knew it.
I wonder how much of that is a fluke and how much of that is real. Basically the Pens were so terrible last year at coming back when trailing that they were bound to be better this year just due to dumb luck.

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Mike Sullivan

Postby FistOfCaufield » Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:05 am

I can't understand why people make comments like "why would a group of age 20-35 year old men need to be led?"

Leader of men applies in all facets of life.

If your boss at work is a loser, is he going to get the most out of all of his employees?
So if my boss at work is a loser, that's an excuse for me to take my entire career and flush it down the toilet until he's fired? That's not how this works, that's not how any of this works.

I'm still not sure what "leader of men" even means - I'd like some examples. Is it screaming loud? Is it cool outfits?

The point I'm making is that it's about hockey, it has nothing to do with "I like my new daddy better than my old daddy because he lets me eat cookies at dinner". These guys are way beyond that high school rah rah bullshit.

Maybe the Penguins team is one dimensional - and the only way they can succeed is playing and exploiting that one dimension? If so - bravo to the organization for realizing that and again - it's about which of the three aspects of the organization go, the stars? the GM? or the coach? In this case it appears the GM remedied the situation by bringing in faster players with more offensive upside either through trade or callups, and bringing in a new coach.

Hopefully we have the perfect mix of some newer defensive habits established that the players hated learning mixing in with a new aggressive game that the players can more easily execute.

Maybe it is 2008 all over again - if so let's hope Sullivan is much better than Bylsma.

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Mike Sullivan

Postby Craig » Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:21 am

I think the problem here is that you arent living in the same reality.l that the rest of us are.

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Postby Silentom » Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:24 am

I just want them to win the Stanley cup and I don't care who is behind the bench when they do.

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Mike Sullivan

Postby FistOfCaufield » Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:30 am

Well when I read these threads I see hockey talk, and then I see pseduo intellectual pot stir talk, which is fine - that's fun too.

But I think it's far more than "He sucks, he didn't know anything back there".

I think the real reality was he knew exactly what he was trying to do, and either the players weren't able to execute, or simply lacked the ability to. Perhaps it didn't fit their skillset - and I think we can certainly agree now that was the case. Bravo to this organization to realize that and find a way to take advantage of the roster they do have and to find the right type of players from outside and within to make the team win again (of course we have to wait to see how the playoffs go).

There were numerous comments made here and the other board after every ousting in the playoffs about regular season success meaning nothing if you can't win playoff hockey. Well playoff hockey involves winning close tight defensive hockey games. Hopefully this new combination of speed, aggressive forechecking, and some good defensive habits on how to exit your own zone lead to a winning playoff formula.

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Postby Morkle » Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:48 am

The best thing that's happened to this team, is that when they go down a goal or two, it's not over until the horn sounds.

If they went down even 1 with FHCMJ the game was over, and everyone knew it.
I wonder how much of that is a fluke and how much of that is real. Basically the Pens were so terrible last year at coming back when trailing that they were bound to be better this year just due to dumb luck.
I would imagine it's probably both. The Pens seemed to always feel defeated when going down a goal.

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Postby shmenguin » Mon Mar 28, 2016 11:02 am

There were numerous comments made here and the other board after every ousting in the playoffs about regular season success meaning nothing if you can't win playoff hockey. Well playoff hockey involves winning close tight defensive hockey games. Hopefully this new combination of speed, aggressive forechecking, and some good defensive habits on how to exit your own zone lead to a winning playoff formula.
we haven't had a defense problem in any of the playoff series that we've been ousted in since 2012.

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Postby FistOfCaufield » Mon Mar 28, 2016 11:38 am

There were numerous comments made here and the other board after every ousting in the playoffs about regular season success meaning nothing if you can't win playoff hockey. Well playoff hockey involves winning close tight defensive hockey games. Hopefully this new combination of speed, aggressive forechecking, and some good defensive habits on how to exit your own zone lead to a winning playoff formula.
we haven't had a defense problem in any of the playoff series that we've been ousted in since 2012.
My point was it wasn't a matter of giving up too many goals, it was a matter of winning close games against good teams. You can't do that playing pond hockey.

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Postby shmenguin » Mon Mar 28, 2016 11:56 am

There were numerous comments made here and the other board after every ousting in the playoffs about regular season success meaning nothing if you can't win playoff hockey. Well playoff hockey involves winning close tight defensive hockey games. Hopefully this new combination of speed, aggressive forechecking, and some good defensive habits on how to exit your own zone lead to a winning playoff formula.
we haven't had a defense problem in any of the playoff series that we've been ousted in since 2012.
My point was it wasn't a matter of giving up too many goals, it was a matter of winning close games against good teams. You can't do that playing pond hockey.
right...we had no game plan because we had a coach who wanted our guys to just go out and play. easy pay check. the logical correction to that, however, is not to bring in a guy to cram generational offensive talents into 100 games of backchecking purgatory. we had to fix things, yes. there is some missing evidence that johnston was the correct choice to do that. in fact...he wasn't even our "choice". he was what, our 3rd or 4th candidate for the job, right?

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Postby mikey » Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:17 pm

Right. And any coach with even an above average eye for tactics knows that what we had was broken - long-standing broken - AND they can't choose their own assistants...with the pressure of having to produce a champion in a tight window...that's a tough spot to want to fill in...you gotta be the guy that ends the party and you gotta do it alone perhaps...

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Postby shmenguin » Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:46 pm

just curious...

is there maybe a 1% chance that it was FHCMJ who wanted scuderi in the lineup instead of a loosey goosey PMD...and getting daley was a direct response to getting a coach that wanted someone like him?

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