HOF - yes or no?

Post by **faftorial** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:48 am

Dickie Dunn wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:34 am Dude had 625 goals while playing in an era that hated scoring. In which universe does he not get in?

I think Mao is just being contrarian.

Post by **meow** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:51 am

Where is this dude's Cup? Where?

Post by **mikey** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:52 am

Parallax...

Post by **mikey** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:53 am

meow wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:51 am Where is this dude's Cup? Where?

You not gonna put Thornton in either...? Go get your hoop sneezed in you dumb crack whore...

Post by **meow** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:54 am

I don't know what that means, so I'm going to act tough until I figure it out

Post by **meow** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:56 am

mikey wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:53 am
meow wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:51 am Where is this dude's Cup? Where?
You not gonna put Thornton in either...? Go get your hoop sneezed in you dumb crack whore...

Thornton has 1509 points while NEVER TAKING A SHOT ON GOAL IN HIS CAREER.

He's a lock, Jerry

Post by **mikey** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:01 am

Iginla has 600 goals while playing with Dean McAmmond and a push broom as linemates during his prime...he's walking in. I actually found Iggy a little overrated in hockey circles, but come on, this is a windmill dunk...

Post by **meow** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:02 am

Yeah probably. His time here sulking and playing like a bum has sourer me on him

Post by **Lelldorin** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:20 am

mikey wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:01 am Iginla has 600 goals while playing with Dean McAmmond and a push broom as linemates during his prime...he's walking in. I actually found Iggy a little overrated in hockey circles, but come on, this is a windmill dunk...

So you are saying that they are worse than Bäckström, Getzlaf, Richards and Toews?

Edit: I think his generation of players (his age+- five years) is a bit weak (perhaps due to the DPE), but his production is impressive considering his linemates...

Post by **mikey** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:34 am

Lelldorin wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:20 am
mikey wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:01 am Iginla has 600 goals while playing with Dean McAmmond and a push broom as linemates during his prime...he's walking in. I actually found Iggy a little overrated in hockey circles, but come on, this is a windmill dunk...
So you are saying that they are worse than Bäckström, Getzlaf, Richards and Toews?

Edit: I think his generation of players (his age+- five years) is a bit weak (perhaps due to the DPE), but his production is impressive considering his linemates...

+/ 5 is a lot, but let's go by draft classes. Iggy is a '95 pick.

1992 class: None. Best: Gonchar, Khabby, Yashin, Lehtinen
1993 class: Pronger, Kariya are in. Next best: Uhhh...Arnott...? Timonen and Bertuzzi.
1994 class: None. Best: Alfredsson, Elias, Hejduk, and I guess Nabokov. Two potential HOFers, probably only one goes.
1995 class: Iginla will go. Next best: Kiprusoff, Savard, Doan
1996 class: Chara will go. Next best: Briere, Kaberle...uhh...Phillips...?
1997 class: Thornton will go, Luongo almost certainly goes. Hossa probably goes. Marleau, Soupy, and Jokinen aren't going...
1998 class: Datsyuk probably goes. Lecavalier, Markov, B.Richards, Tanguay all won't...

So yeah, you got a good case there...1997 takes a bite out of it...but you got a decent case...

Post by **Lelldorin** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:52 am

Yeah, +- five years was a bit over-exaggerating but still. Almost none of the players above will accomplish much more in their career than they already have. A cup for Thornton seems unlikely...
St Louis should be in the 93 class, but was never drafted?

But my point is still that he competed against very few superstars. Lemieux played a few seasons, he faced Jagr, but there are a few weaker years until Crosby/Ovechkin appears. I know that Sakic, Forsberg and the players above are/were stars, but still.

Post by **mikey** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:45 am

Good point on St. Louis. I think he would have needed to opt-in at that time. So he wouldn't have gone til '94. I guess he was signed in the summer of '97, so hell, throw him in that class haha...

There is a weak part of time where Lemieux was gone, Gretzky was gone, Yzerman had nothing left, Jagr offered little...

So "randos" kind of came up...Naslund's three year peak, St. Louis, Iginla...Hejduk led the league in goals, Rick Nash led the league in goals, Scott Gomez led the league in assists with 50-some, Glen Murray and Bill Guerin had 2nd place goal finishes, Jason Allison 2nd place assist finish, a 40 year old d-man nearly won the Norris, Theodore Hart/Vezina...a no-name goalie and two washed up goalies were 3 of the top 4 for the MVP...

I never really even realized how weak of a short-span that really was...I thought it, but I never really wrote it out...that's a weak bunch of players there...

Post by **Lelldorin** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:12 pm

mikey wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:45 am Good point on St. Louis. I think he would have needed to opt-in at that time. So he wouldn't have gone til '94. I guess he was signed in the summer of '97, so hell, throw him in that class haha...

There is a weak part of time where Lemieux was gone, Gretzky was gone, Yzerman had nothing left, Jagr offered little...

So "randos" kind of came up...Naslund's three year peak, St. Louis, Iginla...Hejduk led the league in goals, Rick Nash led the league in goals, Scott Gomez led the league in assists with 50-some, Glen Murray and Bill Guerin had 2nd place goal finishes, Jason Allison 2nd place assist finish, a 40 year old d-man nearly won the Norris, Theodore Hart/Vezina...a no-name goalie and two washed up goalies were 3 of the top 4 for the MVP...

I never really even realized how weak of a short-span that really was...I thought it, but I never really wrote it out...that's a weak bunch of players there...

Guerin was actually selected in the second all star team during that time...

Post by **King Colby** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:35 pm

Marty being a first ballot HOFer is a head scratcher if you ask me. I guess he belongs... was a top 5 player for a few years and led the team to that 2004 cup. Had 2 scoring titles even though one was in the half season.

Post by **King Colby** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:36 pm

meow wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:51 am Where is this dude's Cup? Where?

On the left wing...

Post by **meow** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:57 pm

Please. My two year old throws fewer tantrums than he did. That's the closest I've ever seen a player skate round the ice with his arms crossed and pouting like a toddler

Post by **Pavel Bure** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:21 pm

mikey wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:36 am Gonchar going in would make Dan Boyle's ears perk up...

Gonchar might squeak in eventually. A quick glance at hockeydb shows many more Norris nods (yeah not super high) than Boyle and also about 200 more points. Given PPG are very similar. I’m on the fence with Gonch.

Post by **mikey** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:38 pm

Yeah, Gonchar is certainly better than Boyle...but I'm just saying you're rolling out the red carpet for the debate down the line. Because of the idiots that go, "but Ciccarelli!" or "but Duff!" or "but Laparade!" - Zubov begets Gonchar begets Boyle...it was Zubov that was the fringe case, I just don't want to keep making the room bigger...

Post by **faftorial** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:41 pm

Someone mentioned Zubov getting in as a justification for Gonchar getting in. How do their numbers compare?

Post by **mikey** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:00 pm

Gonchar Norris vote history (dumped non-statistically significant scant voting in 97, 06 (lol), 10)
00 - 0-0-7-10-13 (5th)
01 - 0-1-9-12-6 (6th)
02 - 0-6-6-22-9 (4th)
03 - 0-1-12-17-13 (4th)
04 - 0-3-4-4-2 (9th)
07 - 1-1-6-8-14 (7th)
08 - 1-24-21-21-24 (4th)

Zubov: (dumped non-statistically significant scant voting in 96, 97, 00, 04, 08)
94 - 0-2-9 (4th)
98 - 0-1-0-3-8 (9th)
99 - 0-0-1-2-1 (13th)
01 - 0-1-1-4-4 (8th)
03 - 0-0-3-4-10 (8th)
06 - 0-21-42-31-14 (3rd)
07 - 0-0-4-5-7 (9th)

So...

Gonchar: 4, 4, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9
Zubov: 3, 4, 8, 8, 9, 9, 13

Gonchar played 1995-2015 (1301 GP) 0.62 PPG (never finished top-10 league wide in any scoring category)
Zubov played 1993-2008 (1068 GP) 0.72 PPG (finished top-10 in assists league-wide 3x)

Zubov has 2 Cups and was a huge part of both. Another Final run that he was also a big part of. And I think a '92 Olympic Gold. First-Team All-Star in KHL in '10.
Gonchar has 1 Cup and was a huge part of it. Another two Finals runs that he was also a big part of. Olympic silver in '98.

Just on the very surface...

Post by **Pavel Bure** » Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:30 am

Does Gonch’s cup from the 2017 team when he was a coach apply to this or is that in the executive column while this measure is purely playing career?

Post by **meow** » Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:34 am

Purely playing career

Post by **MR25** » Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:42 am

I know I brought this up previously, but let's say hypothetically Brindamour coaches a team or two to a Cup.

Would they factor his playing career into his coaching career as a total contribution to hockey for making a case for him to get in?

Post by **iamjs** » Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:46 am

Was looking over Hossa's lack of awards today along with his voting.

For somebody who was highly regarded for his two-way game, he only finished top ten in the Selke 3x and his best finish was a distant 5th.

2012-13: 1-4-3-4-13, 78 votes, 4.36% (10th) https://www.hockey-reference.com/awards ... html#selke
2013-14: 0-5-2-2-15, 66 votes, 4.82% (5th) https://www.hockey-reference.com/awards ... html#selke
2014-15: 2-3-6-8-10, 105 votes, 6.73% (7th) https://www.hockey-reference.com/awards ... html#selke

Do I think he gets in? I don't think he gets in today, but I think he will eventually.

Post by **meow** » Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:17 pm

iamjs wrote: ↑Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:46 am For somebody who was highly regarded for his two-way game, he only finished top ten in the Selke 3x and his best finish was a distant 5th.

Winger