Politics And Current Events

[NTP66]

"Never expand government" is a mindlessly dumb hard stance to take.

[NTP66]

Misleading headline, given that it was previously scheduled/agreed to. I'm a little disappointed, but there's still time for Pissbaby to come up with another excuse to skip it.

[nocera]

Good. He agreed because he’s been taking a beating and his own followers had “coward Trump” trending on Truth social.

[genoscoif]

This thread is wild. The inane things posted about Walz get mocked and laughed off. Then seconds later the conversation shifts to inane things about Vance that apparently matter. lol it’s quite a scene

I’ve posed the question a couple times about Walz policies and how extremely left they might be, and gotten no response. Some people in this thread are happy to discuss things, some just wanna throw **** against the wall, some are a combination of both. It’s up to you how you choose to engage.

That's the thing, though. Discussions in here often devolve quickly, which is why I didn't see the point. But what the hell...

Enter wall of text...Be gentle.

First off, depending on the issue, 'far left' isn't synonymous with 'bad' IMO, but it's still 'far left' to me. I think it's important to state that.

I think the discussion around this has been pretty fruitful, and as c2i correctly points out this is all relative and somewhat subjective, but this push to frame Walz as, what, a moderate? is, dare I say, weird...both in here and in the media in general. Of these...

Immigration
Abortion
Unions
Law enforcement
Education
Economy
Green New Deal agenda

...I'd personally say he's left of center on all of them, and 'farther left' on a few (abortion being one). So maybe my interpretation of 'far left' is 'if you are left on every issue and way left on a handful, you kinda become far left in my mind.'

But that's the rub. It is relative. He's far left to me, which doesn't matter to you (or anyone else, really). I'd venture to bet that you and others like his views/policies/ideas regarding the above topics and issues (hell I agree with some of his views), which colors your view of where he lands on the political spectrum. You see him as more moderate than I do. 'If it's extreme to want to help people, then I guess I'm an extremists. hehehehehe'

You and others like that he supports open borders and even possible amnesty. You like that he'd likely push to expand the authority and scope of the DOE. You like that he'd support abortion up to birth. You like that he seems to have been anti-cop at times and allowed rioters to destroy parts of his cities by not calling in the Natl Guard. You like that he somewhat praised the rioters. You like that he'd push to regulate the heck out of the private sector (and individual citizens) to achieve carbon neutrality or net zero. You like that he'd likely expand Obamacare and could potentially push for Medicare for All. You like that he'd use legislation to put menstrual products in boy's bathrooms. I'm not saying all of these are 'extreme', but to me they are 'left'. And I'm not trying to say any of this paragraph represents 100% of his views, it's just what's out there. It's in clips. It's in his actions, decisions, speeches, and legislations.

Which is all fine. He's entitled to be like that, and you're entitled to like that he's like that. But just because you like him or agree with him doesn't mean he's not 'far left' from my (and evidently many others') perspective. Or just because he says he's a 'mind your own damn business' person doesn't make him a 'hands off' legislator, as was shown during Covid. To me, 'mind your own damn business' was meant for a specific population, not everyone.

But again, this narrative is strange. The more left you are, the more you seemingly love this pick. Like, celebrate, man. This is the progressive, big government, regulatory overseer ticket you wanted. And you didn't even have to fight the moderates in a primary to get it! Enjoy it, embrace it... but don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining.

It's almost like dems are afraid to call him what he is, or that people will find out what he is, which is...something. What is the point of trying to convince people that Walz isn't what he seems? Who are you hoping to convince...Republicans? Independents? Moderate Democrats? All of the above? Or is this simply just an attempt to 'normalize' some of the more left positions, which I'd actually understand? It's something to behold, though, both in its coordination and scope.

I agree that this is all subjective, which is why I responded to your earlier post asking what you considered extreme to get perspective. In my opinion, if you’re left in a variety of issues that doesn’t mean you’re an extreme leftist. I feel like someone like Bernie is extreme left. Is walz left? For sure. I don’t view his stances as extreme though… they’re just on the left side on most. But again, that’s just my perspective and we’re obviously coming from different angles, which is fine. So while you’re saying he’s obviously far left and don’t act like you’re stupid, I’d say he’s a typical left guy and it’s not as extreme as the right is making it. I don’t think it’s a boogeyman thing.

When you say “you and others like you…” it gets into huge generalizations. Like I don’t personally agree with all those things you said, but I guess you’re just saying it’s what the left thinks.

Specifically on abortion, and the abortion legal at any point. I heard someone, I think maybe it was Buttigieg, talk about that and I agreed. If you’re a woman who is pregnant, has carried it for 8-9 months, and decide to abort, chances are incredibly high that there’s a very good reason, whether it’s health of the mother or health of the baby. However, some on the right would rather make it out that loose women just decide at the last minute to kill a baby. Women are smart and capable enough to make that choice.

Sure. Health of the mother would be an obvious exception IMO. Even Trump *gasps* believes in exceptions for mother's health. It's semantics, obviously, but I don't consider 'mother will die if not performed' to even be an abortion. We know someone that gut-wrenchingly had that scenario, and I'd say that they 'lost their baby' not 'had an abortion'. What do you mean by 'health of the baby' though? Like not likely to live/survive to full term, or something else?

It's hard to put into words, but I'll try. I don't think there are a ton of women running around and 8 1/2 months saying 'meh, nah. Cut it outta me.' In fact, I think that is incredibly rare. Incredibly. But to me, it should never be allowed to happen. I don't agree that anyone (mother included) has the right to decide that. I'm not sure that's murder, but it's pretty damn close in my mind. And 'very good reason' is soooo subjective. Like, say the mother lost her job. Is that a very good reason? Women are absolutely smart and capable, but do they have the right to decide to end that life?

So if I believe that, and I'm honest with myself, that lands me at restrictions (go with 3rd Trimester) with exceptions up to full term. Outright bans are stupid, and the restrictions are tough to establish. But I guess my counterpoint is 'if this doesn't really ever happen', then why vehemently fight restrictions on that 'type' of decision?

It's interesting to think about what Obama and his Congress would've codified.

[NTP66]

[genoscoif]

please for the love of Christ can we drop the “left wants big government, right wants small government” crap? conservatives have wanted strong government regulation in many areas (abortion, gambling, weed, gay marriage, etc). Really the only two places they don’t want it are gun rights, taxes and the ability to discriminate. Conservatives pretending they’re the party of small government is an active lie

Who said that the right wants small government?

But again, this narrative is strange. The more left you are, the more you seemingly love this pick. Like, celebrate, man. This is the progressive, big government, regulatory overseer ticket you wanted. And you didn't even have to fight the moderates in a primary to get it! Enjoy it, embrace it... but don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining.

Will be interesting to see how you justify how you calling out how leftists want big government doesn’t mean rightists don’t pretend to not want big government

Not all that interesting, actually. They both want big government...or rather they both want power and control, but they'll wield it differently. And they only have to defeat one opponent to get it. It's, IMO, the worst 'fallout' of two party system we have.

Do you disagree that the left wants to expand the role of the federal government?

Honest question because I'm trying to figure out where you're coming from:

Were you a Reagan Republican/raised by Reagan Republicans or otherwise consider yourself in agreement with his policies?

Just trying to figure out why you think "the left" expansion of government is worse than "the right" expansion, and your answer may help provide additional context.

K.

I wasn't raised on any political ideology. My parents are fairly moderate with my dad leaning right and my mom left, but politics weren't really a 'family topic' until somewhat recently.

If we went issue by issue, I'd probably land closer to Rockefeller Republican than Reagan. But I have friends/family on the fairly far right that would consider me a liberal, and friends/family on the fairly far left that would consider me the antichrist. So...yeah.

As far as expanding the federal government, regardless of party, I personally land on 'less is better' with scope, authority, power, funding, etc. 'The left' expansion isn't necessarily worse, but I do feel like they are more...ambitious.

[dodint]

I never once heard MAGA Dad utter a political thought until 2016.

[count2infinity]

Same with my anti-Trump father. Not a single word of politics until he came around.

[NTP66]

Same with us. My parents probably watch 10x as much news programming to see what crazy **** these dadholes are doing/trying to do now.

[shafnutz05]

“I think the people that — if you look at Jan. 6, which a lot of people aren’t talking about very much, those people were treated very harshly when you compare them to other things that took place in this country where a lot of people were killed,” Trump said at his Mar-a-Lago estate in Florida. “Nobody was killed on Jan. 6. But I think the people of Jan. 6 were treated very unfairly.

“The biggest crowd I’ve ever spoken before was that day,” he continued. “And I’ll tell you, it’s very hard to find a picture of that crowd. … If you look at Martin Luther King, when he did his speech, his great speech, and you look at ours. Same real estate. Same everything. Same number of people, if not, we had more.”

“We actually had more people. They said I had 25,000, and he had 1 million people. And I’m OK with it, because I liked Dr. Martin Luther King,” Trump concluded.

[nocera]

Well somebody was killed on Jan 6th…

[MR25]

Who said that the right wants small government?

But again, this narrative is strange. The more left you are, the more you seemingly love this pick. Like, celebrate, man. This is the progressive, big government, regulatory overseer ticket you wanted. And you didn't even have to fight the moderates in a primary to get it! Enjoy it, embrace it... but don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining.

Will be interesting to see how you justify how you calling out how leftists want big government doesn’t mean rightists don’t pretend to not want big government

Not all that interesting, actually. They both want big government...or rather they both want power and control, but they'll wield it differently. And they only have to defeat one opponent to get it. It's, IMO, the worst 'fallout' of two party system we have.

Do you disagree that the left wants to expand the role of the federal government?

Honest question because I'm trying to figure out where you're coming from:

Were you a Reagan Republican/raised by Reagan Republicans or otherwise consider yourself in agreement with his policies?

Just trying to figure out why you think "the left" expansion of government is worse than "the right" expansion, and your answer may help provide additional context.

K.

I wasn't raised on any political ideology. My parents are fairly moderate with my dad leaning right and my mom left, but politics weren't really a 'family topic' until somewhat recently.

If we went issue by issue, I'd probably land closer to Rockefeller Republican than Reagan. But I have friends/family on the fairly far right that would consider me a liberal, and friends/family on the fairly far left that would consider me the antichrist. So...yeah.

As far as expanding the federal government, regardless of party, I personally land on 'less is better' with scope, authority, power, funding, etc. 'The left' expansion isn't necessarily worse, but I do feel like they are more...ambitious.

This is why I asked, so thanks. The vibe I was getting was that you very much agreed with the whole Reagan "I'm from the government and I'm here to help" bit, so it's nice to have things clarified.

I mean, I would rather have government regulations over items that could cause harm to myself or others (environmental, food safety, workplace safety, etc) than to let corporations dictate how safe they want to be with their processes. Recalls of tainted food exist because of government regulation. OSHA exists because people used to die when companies would cut corners.

I think government can be helpful when the goal is helping people. Based on what I know about Tim Walz, he exemplifies that ideal. Government doesn't work for me when one side decides to tank legislation they've previously supported because it would mean their opponents get a win (see: GOP infrastructure and border bill blocks).

The difference in sides, to me, is that one team at least gives off the appearance of trying to be helpful and benefit the greatest number of people, whereas the other side only seems to be motivated by making sure things don't work so they can say "Look how shitty things are".

To sum it up, a government IMO is at it's best when it is answering the question "how best can we help people" and not "how can we make this a political win".

[RonnieFranchise]

3 Taylor swift concerts cancelled in Vienna due to a terrorist plot being discovered.

Hate to be those plotters if Swifties find out who they are. Baby Franchise will miss three nights of guessing what Taylor will be wearing at those concerts and it's not gonna be pretty.

[Willie Kool]

I would say that the rapid escalation of the income gap and destruction of the middle class has also changed my economic views quite a bit too. And the healthcare mess, that is exacerbated by private equity/insurance chasing profits over care, has made me a lot more open to a single payer system.

[Morkle]

Lmao I love that gif.

I wish I had video of that somewhere.

[shafnutz05]

I would say that the rapid escalation of the income gap and destruction of the middle class has also changed my economic views quite a bit too. And the healthcare mess, that is exacerbated by private equity/insurance chasing profits over care, has made me a lot more open to a single payer system.

Lolololol

Literally the last thing I was expecting to see. Thought this had disappeared in the internet ether

[Kaiser]

The definition of the arm movement, the emphasis on binary locomotion. If there were a larger place for it to inhabit, you'd be looking at an internet-wide gif.

[MWB]

Sure. Health of the mother would be an obvious exception IMO. Even Trump *gasps* believes in exceptions for mother's health. It's semantics, obviously, but I don't consider 'mother will die if not performed' to even be an abortion. We know someone that gut-wrenchingly had that scenario, and I'd say that they 'lost their baby' not 'had an abortion'. What do you mean by 'health of the baby' though? Like not likely to live/survive to full term, or something else?

It's hard to put into words, but I'll try. I don't think there are a ton of women running around and 8 1/2 months saying 'meh, nah. Cut it outta me.' In fact, I think that is incredibly rare. Incredibly. But to me, it should never be allowed to happen. I don't agree that anyone (mother included) has the right to decide that. I'm not sure that's murder, but it's pretty damn close in my mind. And 'very good reason' is soooo subjective. Like, say the mother lost her job. Is that a very good reason? Women are absolutely smart and capable, but do they have the right to decide to end that life?

So if I believe that, and I'm honest with myself, that lands me at restrictions (go with 3rd Trimester) with exceptions up to full term. Outright bans are stupid, and the restrictions are tough to establish. But I guess my counterpoint is 'if this doesn't really ever happen', then why vehemently fight restrictions on that 'type' of decision?

It's interesting to think about what Obama and his Congress would've codified.

As you say, it’s incredibly rare. Less than 1% of abortions are after the 21st week. We agree, as most people do, that life of the mother is an exception. In terms of health of the baby, you have concerns about viability once born, long-term complications like brain damage, or other extreme complications.

Abortion is incredibly complex, but ultimately my thinking is that it’s up to the mother (and hopefully father too) to decide the best option. That late, it’s not going to be a haphazard decision. It’s going to be something where the physical and mental well being of both the mother and child are considered. Who best to decide that other than the person giving birth? When you let an outside force decide what is best you’re taking it from who it impacts most.

[MWB]

This election is about good v evil

All this other stuff is a distraction

I’m happy to just vote in a normal functioning adult.

This is why I respect you… I remember when Jan 6 happened and you said that was a step too far. Since then, I have seen several people I know who said the same as you did then, only to eventually go back and now be supporters of Trump. You’ve held to what you said, and even though we may not see eye to eye on many issues, you come from a position of logic. My hope is that after this election the maga side will go away and republicans like you will be the driving force of the right, which will only help our country.

[MWB]

I'm in the same boat as you, Trip. shaf's views have changed significantly, IMO, and I can't recall the last time I argued with him about something in this arena. He's not a pinko by any stretch, but he seems to be a good example of a Republican who can openly oppose this MAGA GOP bullshit because that's exactly what it is. And that's far more than I can say for others here.

2020 and the rise of the Trump Cult (and their associated behavior that I've mentioned) really forced me to reassess my beliefs. I think I've also gotten a lot more empathetic as I've gotten older and being a dad has definitely shaped that. That's not the kind of person I want to be president during her formative teenage years, and I don't want the MAGA ilk to feel even more empowered than they already do.

Funny how kids change things, isn’t it? I’ve always been left leaning because of how I was raised and probably where I was raised. But since I have two daughters, I’m definitely more aware of how things impact women, and it shocks me that people don’t see Trump as having a net negative impact on women, both through the sexual assault stuff and the desire to make men more macho.

[faftorial]

Funny how kids change things, isn’t it?

[King Colby]

Abortion is easy honestly. Allow them until viability is reached. Boom done. Peace aht

[faftorial]

Abortion is easy honestly. Allow them until viability is reached. Boom done. Peace aht

But then you find out your child is dead in the womb at 30 weeks. Then what? That's happened in TX recently and they had to flee the state to get an abortion.

[faftorial]

Personally, I'm very against abortion outside of horrible outcomes. Leave it up to patients and doctors to make the decisions.

[Lemon Berry Lobster]

Sad to see even the "conservatives" here have shifted far of left. Europe is in a dumpster fire, bending the knee to Islam. Folks are getting/threatened with jail time via 'misinformation'. I know I will get trolled and attacked for this but, when you do, take a step back and think. The west is on the verge of the fall.