hockey analytics

Postby **MR25** » Mon Aug 03, 2015 8:41 pm

Ryan Wilson is a prime example of someone who (more or less) uses advanced stats and ONLY advanced stats to form his opinions of the players he pretends to watch.

He treats it as the be all, end all. It isn't.

Postby **meow** » Tue Aug 04, 2015 8:55 am

Mikey and Randull basically nailed it. He does not understand that game (which is fine - I don't expect everyone to), so he uses the stats to try and explain things that he thinks he sees (some of which are correct and some of which are incorrect, IMO). He uses the numbers as his foundation when I think they should be used as the landscaping. Again, IMO.

Postby **Kicksave** » Tue Aug 04, 2015 9:06 am

What are the qualifiers for "understanding the game"?

Postby **meow** » Tue Aug 04, 2015 9:24 am

Good question. I'd qualify it as knowing why certain things happen during a game.

Postby **Craig** » Tue Aug 04, 2015 9:33 am

Advanced stats are the dream for a writer. Then you can truly do your job without watching the game.

I'd say there is a gray area between having a differing opinion and not understanding the game, and when you are nowhere near that gray area, it becomes safe to say that you don't understand the game. It becomes so obvious that its basically no longer subjective.

Postby **count2infinity** » Tue Aug 04, 2015 9:41 am

At the same time, analytics are a dream for the casual fan. As they continue to develop it will become easier and easier for fans to take a look at a set of numbers to have an idea of the kind of player they're getting beyond just goals and assists. I know I don't have the time to watch all 82 pens games, let alone other teams. So if these stats continue to develop, I'm all for taking the traditional method away where you have very large differences of opinions on some guys and just put it into numbers.

Postby **meow** » Tue Aug 04, 2015 9:47 am

I think that is the most important thing about the numbers. If they get to a more useful place, it will be a great tool to educate new fans with.

Postby **MalkinIsMyHomeboy** » Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:40 am

I think that is the most important thing about the numbers. If they get to a more useful place, it will be a great tool to educate new fans with.

eh

I think it's more for the intermediate fans who have an interest but not the time commitment to become expert fans (like c2i kind of touches on).

Like, it's very hard for me to watch non-Pens games (I try, but it's difficult). So when the Pens trade for some Western conference third line winger that I don't know a ton about, I'll be able to judge their talent level with something other than what I usually look at (points, goals, assists, TOI, PP/PK TOI) which are all pretty difficult to trust counting stats.

Postby **meow** » Tue Aug 04, 2015 12:02 pm

That very well might be true as well.

Postby **Craig** » Tue Aug 04, 2015 12:18 pm

It seems like a tool primarily used for someone who wants to act like they know about every player in the league. Im not sure what they think they gain by portraying that though.

Postby **meow** » Tue Aug 04, 2015 12:30 pm

Or an ax grinding tool... example: Wilson on Sutter.

Postby **slappybrown** » Tue Aug 04, 2015 2:48 pm

I think that is the most important thing about the numbers. If they get to a more useful place, it will be a great tool to educate new fans with.

Given their use by most every NHL team in making actual decisions about which players to sign, trade, waive, draft, etc., I think we can safely conclude that they are useful tool, whether you've been in the league for 50 years as a player, scout, and GM (eg, Jim Rutherford), or you just found out what hockey was yesterday. You don't need to wait any longer.

And, I'd submit they're most useful for people who are already fans and follow the game closely. Learning that maybe your view on a player is incomplete or even incorrect is a good thing, not a bad thing. Its another way to evaluate and challenge your thinking on a player, particularly those that you don't watch on a regular basis (eg, Nick Bonino for me and most of the teams west of the Mississippi).

Postby **slappybrown** » Tue Aug 04, 2015 2:48 pm

I think that is the most important thing about the numbers. If they get to a more useful place, it will be a great tool to educate new fans with.
eh

I think it's more for the intermediate fans who have an interest but not the time commitment to become expert fans (like c2i kind of touches on).

Like, it's very hard for me to watch non-Pens games (I try, but it's difficult). So when the Pens trade for some Western conference third line winger that I don't know a ton about, I'll be able to judge their talent level with something other than what I usually look at (points, goals, assists, TOI, PP/PK TOI) which are all pretty difficult to trust counting stats.

Postby **double m v.2.0** » Tue Aug 04, 2015 10:26 pm

How does anyone know if ryan wilson watches pens games or not? Did I miss something?

YouTube · Postby **mikey** » Tue Aug 04, 2015 10:39 pm

You can tell by his articles that he has little fundamental knowledge of the actual game...that, or he hides it very well...

He might watch every game three times, who knows or cares...that's not the point...

Postby **slappybrown** » Wed Aug 12, 2015 12:44 pm

He played collegiately at the D-III level. That doesn't make him Bob Johnson but I think we can assume he has a basic understanding of, e.g., forechecking systems, different PP/PK approaches, etc. I think he overdoes it by being too strident and he doesn't provide the type of insight by applying the data creatively to allow the reader to learn something new (I can look at CF% numbers just like he can), but I don't think its accurate to say he doesn't know the basics.

Postby **meow** » Wed Aug 12, 2015 2:38 pm

I don't know. Jeremy Roenick played 18 years in the NHL and I'd be surprised if he could spell his own name.

YouTube · Postby **mikey** » Wed Aug 12, 2015 3:30 pm

Eddie Olczyk scored 400 goals and still can't diagram plays or add much to a broadcast...not sayin, just sayin...

Postby **shmenguin** » Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:34 pm

i think those types of guys can be victims of their own biases like anyone else...kinda like goalies have biases towards defensive players and coaches have biases towards coach-able players

...just sayin

Postby **meow** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 8:34 am

Wait, Olczyk or Wilson?

just sayin

Postby **slappybrown** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 1:15 pm

So are we headed towards mikey and meow claiming that they understand hockey systems better than Ed Olczyk and Jeremy Roenick? Because I'm excited if this is what's happening here.

YouTube · Postby **mikey** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 1:23 pm

I'm not going to claim all that, but I'll say that if Edzo's best is brought to TV (and I see him both nationally and locally on CSN-Chicago) then there's no doubt that I do...and that sounds callous and boastful and all that, but he has a very narrow scope of knowledge if he shows anywhere near his best on TV...I've seen readily diagram plays incorrectly and suggest things that are fundamentally incorrect a number of times, now maybe he's programmed to carry a tune for TV, I'll grant him that benefit of the doubt...but if he's unencumbered, then his hockey knowledge is below average for his peers certainly...

Postby **Kraftster** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 1:42 pm

So are we headed towards mikey and meow claiming that they understand hockey systems better than Ed Olczyk and Jeremy Roenick? Because I'm excited if this is what's happening here.

lol

Postby **meow** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:01 pm

If what those two present on national TV is their best, well...then their best is not very good.

Postby **MalkinIsMyHomeboy** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:23 pm

I don't find that incredibly ridiculous. Hockey isn't calculus...I think most people, if they put in the time and effort, have the ability to understand it. Pro players are valued much more for their physical abilities than their mental understanding of the game.

When I'm watching games of all sports I feel like it's often that I know rules or something that players don't. Like McNabb not knowing that you can have a tie in football