Non-Penguins NHL Games 2021

[Fire0nIce228]

Best goalie of the 2010-2020 decade no questions asked

From 2010-2011 to 2019-2020

2nd in games played by 1 game (Lundqvist)
3rd in wins (Fleury and Rinne)
9th in sv% (min 100 games played)
10th GAA (min 100 games played)

I only looked at min 100 games because to go up to 200 leaves off everyone’s favorite Tim Thomas (felt like he had to be included due to being a cup winning goalie) if you make it min 200 games he’s goes up a bit.

http://www.nhl.com/stats/goalies?report ... ageSize=50

I felt like 100 games over a entire decade was too low so even jumping it to 400 games, Price is

Starts - 2 (1 behind Lundquist, top 4 are within 4 games of eachother 549-545 / Rinne soon to fall away as he doesnt play as often or retires)
Wins - 3rd
Losses -1st (most losses)
SV% - 4
GAA - 6
SO -2 (tied for second with 4 other goalies)
Saves as well as Goals against - 2nd (Lunquist 1st)

So, IDK.. I guess maybe ? Obviously GAA and SV% are tiny differences amongst the top performance .05 here or there or whatever so to me.. I dont personally see the lust for this guy to get into the HHOF amongst media and fans alike, but I'm a pigeon so whatever do I know. If you add more time to the filters you see Price and many other last decade names drop way down the list (GAA/SV%) when compared with Brouduer and some of the guys from the decade prior, few of which are being considered HHOF material..

[mikey]

Yeah, this really shows off the limitation of those stats...

[Pavel Bure]

Yeah, this really shows off the limitation of those stats...

7 time all-star
Jennings trophy (2015)
Vezina trophy (2015)
Hart trophy (2015)
Lindsay trophy (2015)

Does that 2015 year put him over the top? That was a major down offensive year and Jamie Benn led the league with 87 points. It’s almost like that year was going to be a default goalie pick.

14 years and has only been the best at his position one of those. How about Jose Theodore? One Vezina and one Hart (I know that’s disingenuous) but does having one year of awards in a down offensive year along with top 10 stats make a hall of famer?

[mikey]

Nope, all of the other stuff that was talked about makes him a likely a HOFer. With goaltending, the peak year is assumed as part of a resume...some have one better than others...it's about sustained positive impact on the game...goaltending statistics that surround averages and ratios aren't very useful by default because games and series can't be won on averages or ratios. And there are so many instances where team structure will try to protect a poor goalie (Brian Elliott in St. Louis, Tim Thomas in Boston) or realize that they lack the high end talent to compete and just play a really tight game and can cycle through any goalie and get results (these Islanders teams under Trotz, for instance). So just seeing where someone lands on the save percentage scale isn't very correlative to success. Not to mention the affects of shot volume on save percentage itself.

Goalies really require proper talent evaluation to go in...that's why there's so few because no one bothers to learn how goaltending works...

So people get swayed from the big years (Tim Thomas's 2011, Ryan Miller's 2010, Jose Theodore's 2002, Bill Ranford's 1990, etc.) and lose sight of the big picture.

It's guys like Lundqvist and Price that belong because they delivered the goods (as good as they could) for a long period of time and as a bonus, did it in particularly poor situations...the old thing with them is that they couldn't score for them, and sure, they're playing defense in front of them and all too, but these teams weren't very complete. I mean, look at this playoffs: Montreal is 10-0 when they score at least twice in a game I believe. That's not a lot of room for error for Price and he's making it work.

Most of the goalies in the league of similar talent level. The talent difference between the 6th most talented goalie in the league and the 22nd, isn't large. And it certainly isn't as large as it was in, say, 1987...so it sort of all blends together a little bit. The key is bringing that talent to the forefront on a nightly basis. Marc-Andre Fleury - we all know the deal there - if he was consistent in bringing his best to the forefront, he goes down as a historically noteworthy goalie...but he wasn't. I'll have to ask a stat man about this, but I can't imagine there's a goalie in history that gives up more goals on the first shot of the game as Fleury did/does. He just wasn't always dialed in. Sometimes that lack of focus ended after the first 90 seconds of the game and then sometimes you got the 2012 and 2013 playoff series...

So there's a lot of nuance to all of this, but even more so for goalies...

[Fire0nIce228]

Id love to see that first shot goal stat too

[Pavel Bure]

Very interesting. Thanks @mikey, I think based on what you said a person has to be really immersed in certain nuances to evaluate a goalie.

It really comes into focus when you mentioned Lundqvist. My instant reaction is he’s in. Then when you look at his resume and it’s less than Price’s.

[mikey]

Right? Like, wouldn't you have guessed it's a little meatier than it is...? I mean, it's really good, but...

Vezina voting: 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4, 6, 6

He has a couple of other finishes, but with only 1 or 2 votes, which really is not noteworthy...

First-Team: 1x
Second-Team: 1x
Third-Team: 1x

Top-5 wins: 5x
Top-5 GAA: 2x (both 5th)
Top-5 sv%: 3x
Top-5 SO: 4x

He did have a noteworthy 2005 season in Sweden, which was a noteworthy league in 2005 and he really dominated. Then hits a gold medal in a best on best Olympics in 2006.

Then you go and look at even like Eddie Belfour...not even a Roy, Brodeur, Hasek type guy...

Vezina: 1, 1, 2, 3, 4, 4, 4, 7, 7
First-Team: 2x
Second-Team: 1x
Third-Team: 3x

Top-5 wins: 8x
Top-5 GAA: 7x
Top-5 sv%: 4x
Top-5 SO: 9x

And then you factor in that Belfour's career overlapped entirely with certainly three of the best seven goalies of all time, maybe three of the top 5...so the spots for these are far, far more limited for Belfour than they are for Lundqivst who faced almost no one of note...

[Fire0nIce228]

I guess I'm in left field.. to me Lundquist is a nope as well.

[mikey]

Yeah, if you don't take Price or Lundqivst, I have to assume that we'll have basically a 15 year gap in the league where there were no HOF goalies...and I mean, sure, it's not about time...but it's just...not...likely...? I guess the next shot at one is Vasilevskiy...

[meow]

Lundqvist is a no. Decent international resume I think, but a dirt bag in the national league.

This generation only sends Price if it is up to me.

[King Colby]

I agree with meow there but I expect to see fleury get in. People love him and he's got "3" cups and now a vezina. Plus what he did for Vegas really ad a builder was something. He doesn't belong but he's gonna get in.

[mikey]

People like Lundqvist too, for the record...

[Dickie Dunn]

This generation only sends Price if it is up to me.

We know.

[meow]

People like Lundqvist too, for the record...

People also drink milk. People are mutants. Who cares what they think?

[mikey]

I mean people that are in and around the game, and thus might have a controlling stake in his HHOF credentials...

But yeah, I get your point, people drink other mammals' titty water and think that weird fetish is okay...

[Pavel Bure]

I agree with meow there but I expect to see fleury get in. People love him and he's got "3" cups and now a vezina. Plus what he did for Vegas really ad a builder was something. He doesn't belong but he's gonna get in.

I thought I misread that. Good for Fleury

[shafnutz05]

Pretty remarkable to be nominated for and win the Vezina for the first time in your 37th year. Really happy for him.

[the wicked child]

It is unfortunately very on brand for Fleury to finally win the Vezina in a season where the only thing most people will remember is that gaffe in Game 3 of the semi-finals.

[MR25]

I'll remember that he pitched a 2.04 GAA (4th best in the playoffs) but only went 9-7 because only his defensemen were able to score goals with any regularity.

[willeyeam]

Flower and Price are in. We can debate the merits all we want, but it will happen. So it is what it is

[Fire0nIce228]

Flower and Price are in. We can debate the merits all we want, but it will happen. So it is what it is

I mean Flower- I know I'm a yinzer - but on merit

longevity as a starter - 17 years in the league
Top 3 in wins (may get top 2?)
Career SV% higher than Roy and Brodeur at the moment
3 Cups
Canadian Olympian (and gold medal)
5x NHL Finals appearances (3 of which as the starter)
7x conference finals appearances (?)
multi time all star
Vezina
Top 10 minutes played for goaltenders (if he plays around 40 games next year he jumps up to 7th)


For over a decade when the NHL thought of pitt they thought of 29 in goal and now the first person in your mind for VGK is flower

[mikey]

Wait, so you have Fleury in and not Price or Lundqvist...?

A lot of this is just hanging around a long time and era bias (career save pct)...

You can have Fleury in, but not for a lot of these reasons and certainly not without Price and Lundqvist...

[Fire0nIce228]

Yeah I guess I just dont see how the guy who is going to be second all time in wins, coupled with accomplishments listed above (some individual/some team), doesnt get in. I dont really understand how its questioned, honestly.

I think I get what you're saying though - Hank or Price on the Pens probably end up with the same or more laundry list of accolades that MAF has - instead of the butt teams they were on that never amounted to much save a special season here or there.

[mikey]

Compilation stats aren't necessarily telling of a player's impact on the game. Often, they are just era bias.

Notice how, like, Ron Francis - God bless him - retired 4th all time in points. Surely, a HOFer, but - like - not a top 10, 30, 50, 75 player of all time...but if you look at his points, you'd think otherwise...Mark Recchi retired 11th all time in points, kind of borderline HOFer, Dave Andreychuk is top 30 of all time...and, sure, he was fine, but isn't just because he's one of the guys that played most of his career from 1979 to 1997...? He wasn't a HOF-caliber player to me...

Maybe it's more obvious with the NFL...

All but 2 of the top 11 QBs in passing yards played in the 2010's...now, maybe, we saw all of the best QBs ever play in the last decade (like Eli Manning, Ben Roethlisberger, Matt Ryan, Philip Rivers) or maybe it's just that Johnny Unitas (who narrowly leads Dave Krieg and Boomer Esiason) didn't have the same luxuries of today's era, but dominated his way more than, uhh, Joe Flacco, who has more yards than him...

Fleury played for a while on really good teams, and he played in an era where a win was a mandatory result...other goalies had ties (with the benefit overtime) and through most of the history of the league until 1982 or so, goalies didn't even have overtime to work with...

That's why you always see me turn to where they finished in individual seasons and how they rank...while also not perfect, it's roughly 500x better than looking at the raw totals.

If, say, Andrew Cogliano played 20 years and got 50 points a season...can we honestly say he was a better or more impactful player than Eric Lindros...? There's just no way to get there...

[Gaucho]