HOF - yes or no?

HOF - yes or no?

Jarome Iginla
22
19%
Daniel Alfredsson
12
10%
Tom Barrasso
7
6%
Theo Fleury
5
4%
Sergei Gonchar
9
8%
Marian Hossa
15
13%
Kevin Lowe
3
3%
Alex Mogilny
12
10%
Keith Tkachuk
6
5%
Patrik Elias
3
3%
Rod Brind'Amour
7
6%
Jeremy Roenick
6
5%
Pierre Turgeon
5
4%
Curtis Joseph
4
3%
 
Total votes: 116
AuthorTony
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HOF - yes or no?

Postby AuthorTony » Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:04 pm

I haven't read all the posts but it's criminal that Turgeon isn't already in the Hall let alone near the top of this poll.

mikey
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HOF - yes or no?

Postby mikey » Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:36 pm

Not that I even necessarily disagree, but why...?

AuthorTony
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HOF - yes or no?

Postby AuthorTony » Mon Sep 07, 2020 11:08 pm

Well, he certainly has the stats (1,000 points, 500 goals, over 1 ppg average with over 1,000 games played) all while playing on mostly crappy teams. He has better or comparable stats to HOFers like Hossa, Goulet. And offensively, I think he was one of the most talented players of his generation. I think the only reason he isn't already in the HOF is because he was the only player who didn't join in the brawl in Junior championship and many Canadians hold that against him.

I know there's a lot of talk about how guys should be considered "the best" at their positions at some points during their careers to get in the Hall. I don't disagree with that, but were guys like Andreychuk, St. Louis, Nieuwendyk, Ciccarelli, Glenn Anderson, or even Recchi really considered "the best?"

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HOF - yes or no?

Postby mikey » Mon Sep 07, 2020 11:10 pm

Again, don't necessarily disagree, just wanted to hear why...I don't subscribe to compounding problems though, just because Andreychuk or Lowe or Nieuwendyk are in doesn't justify someone else being in for me...

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HOF - yes or no?

Postby AuthorTony » Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:01 am

I know what you mean. It's a slippery slope. But it's already the Hall of Very Good so the horse is out of the barn when it comes to only putting in the elite. In a way I feel like there should be two tiers. One for the elite who were/should be first ballot members, one for the best of the rest.

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HOF - yes or no?

Postby mikey » Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:27 am

If you wanted to make a case against Turgeon, it has a lot to do with him being soft and a playoff disappointment through most of his prime...

1996 Montreal Gazette:
The missing. Three more key veterans - Pierre Turgeon, Andrei Kovalenko and Patrice Brisebois - basically took the series off. Brisebois at least had an excuse: he was nursing an injured back.

...

- O captain, my captain. Pierre Turgeon is captain of this team because Ronald Corey wanted a francophone family man to carry the torch from the Forum to the Molson Centre. The job should have gone to Vincent Damphousse, but Damphousse was a bachelor.

Turgeon doesn't look like a captain. He doesn't act like a captain.

In this series, at least, he did not play like a captain.
I don't think Turgeon was considered for any national team duty during that time...now, of course, center is a tough spot to make on Team Canada, but I don't think I recall ever seeing his name in contention...

Maybe he was something of a bad team scorer...? Only one season in his whole point per game career did he even receive a Hart vote (2 seconds and 6 thirds in 1993 for a distant 5th place finish in 1993)...the voters (for whatever they're worth) never once considered him top-5 at his position at any point in his career, much less consistently...he only really helped one team to a Conference Final (2001 Blues with Pronger and MacInnis each averaging over 30 minutes a night), immediately thereafter he signed a big ticket in Dallas, didn't perform and faded into oblivion...

Turgeon had a lot of skill, but it even took voters a while (though, less time, but on merit) to push someone like Paul Kariya in and Kariya was a much better player who had a much better career...

I'm not saying I agree or whatever, because I'll definitely take Turgeon over Andreychuk and Nieuwendyk and Ciccarelli, goin' away, but there are some major holes in the resume...

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HOF - yes or no?

Postby MR25 » Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:33 am

I wonder how much getting assaulted by Dale Hunter ruined his career trajectory.

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Postby mikey » Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:43 am

Possibly some, but he did return with a 114 point pace the very next season...then put up 127 points in the next 104 games with Montreal...so it seems like he recovered well...

If Turgeon - who I think took one shift in the Wales Conference Final - could have somehow gotten the Isles past Patrick Roy's best work, then maybe that changes everything for his career narrative...but alas, that's not how it went down...

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HOF - yes or no?

Postby AuthorTony » Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:10 pm

Turgeon had a lot of skill, but it even took voters a while (though, less time, but on merit) to push someone like Paul Kariya in and Kariya was a much better player who had a much better career...

I'm not saying I agree or whatever, because I'll definitely take Turgeon over Andreychuk and Nieuwendyk and Ciccarelli, goin' away, but there are some major holes in the resume...
I agree 100% with all of this.

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HOF - yes or no?

Postby meow » Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:36 pm

Turgeon gets into the Hall of Very Good

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HOF - yes or no?

Postby Pavel Bure » Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:10 pm

Well, he certainly has the stats (1,000 points, 500 goals, over 1 ppg average with over 1,000 games played) all while playing on mostly crappy teams. He has better or comparable stats to HOFers like Hossa, Goulet. And offensively, I think he was one of the most talented players of his generation. I think the only reason he isn't already in the HOF is because he was the only player who didn't join in the brawl in Junior championship and many Canadians hold that against him.

I know there's a lot of talk about how guys should be considered "the best" at their positions at some points during their careers to get in the Hall. I don't disagree with that, but were guys like Andreychuk, St. Louis, Nieuwendyk, Ciccarelli, Glenn Anderson, or even Recchi really considered "the best?"
Don’t think St. Louis belongs on that list because of 03-04. Two Art Ross trophies as well.

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HOF - yes or no?

Postby tifosi77 » Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:19 pm

There are only like 5 or 6 players eligible for the HOF with 500+ goals that haven't been inducted yet. And from what I recall, pretty much all of the others were lacking the complementary playmaking ability of Turgeon.

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HOF - yes or no?

Postby mikey » Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:20 pm

Yeah, St. Louis is in the conversation for top 100 player of all time...his 2004-2014 peak is pretty strong, and it crossed an era gap...really strong playoff performer too, even in an era where it should have been really tough for someone who was 5'6"...he's certainly in Kariya territory, right?

There's really no case for Andreychuk, Nieuwendyk, Ciccarelli, or Anderson to be top 200 players of all time for me...Recchi probably has a borderline case...

St. Louis and Kariya are on another level from those guys...Turgeon is charitably in between those two groups maybe...but probably closer to the lower end guys at the end of the day, just eyeballing it...

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HOF - yes or no?

Postby mikey » Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:27 pm

Yeah, again, compounding problems...there is nothing mystical about 500 other than that it's a round number...if a player scores 499 goals, he isn't necessarily worse than the player with 500...it's a silly thing...

Every 539 goal scorer, for instance, who is eligible is already in the HOF...(Jagr, Ovechkin, Marleau)

The guys who just crossed into the 500s who aren't in: Tkachuk (538), Verbeek (522), Turgeon (515), Roenick (513), Bondra (503)...is there a guy on that list you would take over Theo Fleury (455), for instance...? I don't see one...I want Fleury over Marleau, too, for the record and it's not even close...

In the same breath, Turgeon isn't worse for me if he didn't play his 18 year old season and his 37 year old season (18 combined goals, dropping him to 497)...

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HOF - yes or no?

Postby AuthorTony » Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:01 pm

Numbers in and of themselves are arbitrary, but they're not when put into context. I think less than 100 players in NHL history have scored more than 1,000 points. And I believe less than 50 players have scored more than 500 goals. Scoring goals and points is an important part of the game. So while the numbers might be pulled out of a hat, when put into the context they can make a case for a player's potential HOF worthiness. Unless you want to take stats out of the equation altogether, which I could consider getting behind.

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HOF - yes or no?

Postby mikey » Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:18 pm

I don't want to take stats out of the equation all together, but it's important to know what foot goes forward first...the game happens and numbers accumulate behind it. When talent doesn't match the numbers that are being produced, especially, you have to really dig down and figure out why...and sometimes those situations are more nuanced than others. Like the lonely island that meow and I were on with regard to Tim Thomas from 2009 to 2011 when he was relevant...that's a great example. Now, most people have come to realization that was just some fly-by-night flunkie as opposed to Johnny Bower 2.0. It's difficult to both evaluate the talent and also take yourself out of the moment that you're in...

Similarly, you look at the 500+ goal scorers of all time, something like 33 of 45 or some such spent at least five years of their career playing between 1979-1995...and one of which ate up the War years (Richard as well)...so there's even context that goes to the context...so that's why it becomes such a dangerous game...500 of Mike Gartner's goals are not worth the nearly the same as 500 of Jean Beliveau's...

Just going on talent alone is a ton of work (for starters) but it will lead to the best answers if qualified persons are behind it...but it unfairly cuts down too many players before 1950 due to the lack of consistent video footage...

But the moral of the story is: 500 and 1000 are nice, but they aren't created equally. Just like when Andrei Vasilevskiy breaks the all-time single-playoff record for wins this time around with 17+, it comes with a big asterisk...but I mean, even though he did it in some tough times, did Patrick Marleau look and feel like a HOFer to you...? That's a case of the dolphin net catching a tuna...

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HOF - yes or no?

Postby Pavel Bure » Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:23 pm

4 mins into Pierre’s highlight video and half of it is from all-star games. For whatever reason that makes me lean more towards a no.

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HOF - yes or no?

Postby Gaucho » Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:21 am

For good reason.

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