Amateur Hockey Thread

Silentom
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Postby Silentom » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:00 am

:lol:

You know I was just kidding.

mikey
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Postby mikey » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:04 am

You're hanging up your stripes?
It's been a while already...and I just don't have as much time for it any more... :|

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Postby dodint » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:05 am

;)

If i were offended I wouldn't have said anything at all. I just would've recorded it in my little notebook for, uh, someday. Like I did with PFiDC.

Anyway, I see they have Hi-Lo wheels in 5 different sizes. That would imply that I can set my own, then? Or maybe I'm mixing Jr/Sr wheels. I've read that you shouldn't change the geometry of a chassis by switching from Hi-Lo to straight or vice versa, but nothing about sizing down congruently within a Hi-Lo chassis.

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Postby mikey » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:14 am

Is this issue at all mitigated by buying harder wheels...?

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Postby dodint » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:20 am

A harder wheel wouldn't affect the bearing binding, just the wear rate. Not really concerned about wear. I'm running 78A wheels which is the fat guy wheel for sport court.
A harder wheel would still dig into the boot as the clearance is unchanged.

Sizing down the wheel diameter would also give me a little more agility. I don't have much top end speed to sacrifice anyway.

I e-mailed Inline Warehouse, we'll see what they say.

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Postby mikey » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:26 am

I'm not a scientologist...but if the wheels are harder, wouldn't the wheel itself absorb a little more of the weight and distribute less back up through the bearing?

I mean, you're not applying weight directly to the bearing via the ground, right? You're applying it to the wheel via the ground, then that channels back up into the bearing and chassis...no? So if the wheel can absorb more weight, that's less that gets distributed back up through the bearing I feel like...

I could be way, way off though...there's some science people here who can slap me in the head here... @count2infinity is one, there's a couple of others...

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Postby dodint » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:35 am

I would argue that a harder wheel would transmit more energy to the bearing as it wouldn't be scrubbing material to the floor.

I like you're thinking, I just don't agree with it. Also it still doesn't fix my problem of the wheel carving into the boot.

@count2infinity Come science us for our amusement.

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Postby count2infinity » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:46 am

No clue... my first guess would be that the wheel hardness has little to nothing to do with a bearing issue as your going to transfer the same weight to the bearing regardless of the wheel hardness. Do they make wheels rated for larger individuals? I was 280ish when I played and I didn't have any binding issues.

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Postby dodint » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:51 am

They recommend a harder wheel for heavier people so you're not burning through them constantly. I run a 78A hardness when I'd really like to run something closer to a 72A. When I would skate outside on running paths I would leave visible marks on the path every time I pushed off or turned. :lol:

Even when I get back to 230lbs I'll still be exceeding the skates max rating of 220lbs. No hope for me, really. Wheels aren't even talked about in the context of 'over 220lbs' on sizing guides and rating websites.

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Postby Lemon Berry Lobster » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:05 pm

Hit the gym, fatty magoo.

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Postby Dan H » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:02 pm

I can't answer dodint's original question because I'm not an inline skater and do not have an expert knowledge of how inline skate bearings and chassis deform under load and heat. I can, however, provide an authoritative physics answer to one scenario mentioned above.

So long as there are no points of contact between the wheels and the rest of the skate besides the bearings, the hardness of the wheels will not affect the load on the bearings. If you're just standing still, the wheels collectively must support their own weight plus the weight of everything above them. The load can be distributed unevenly across the wheels, but the total load summed across all the wheels is fixed. Since the only things touching the wheels are the bearings and the ground, the bearings have to push down on the wheels almost exactly as hard as the ground pushes up (the difference is the weight of the wheels, which is a tiny difference). The same physics applies to the bearings and the chassis: the total load on the chassis equals the total load on the bearings (minus the negligible weight of the bearings). Now when you start pushing on your skates and moving around, the total load will no longer equal the total weight, but it will still always be true that the total load on the wheels is almost exactly equal to the total load on the bearings. This follows from Newton's Laws and doesn't have anything to do with the hardness of the wheels.

Now dodint mentioned that there is a point of contact between one wheel and the boot, and that could reduce the load on the bearings a little bit: some of the load on the wheels can be borne directly by the boot instead of via the bearings and chassis. How much load is transferred directly to the boot may depend upon the geometry of the contact point, which COULD depend upon the hardness of the wheels. I won't do a detailed analysis here, but my instinct is that changing wheel hardness by a little bit won't change the bearing load very much. You're probably talking about an effect of a few percent at most.

I'll have to defer to a mechanical engineer with more experience working with roller bearings than I have to explain the behavior reported by dodint. He says there is more friction in the bearing after use, even without load (he picks up his skate and spins a wheel with his hand), and that the bearings more or less return to normal after he's done playing hockey and the skates sit around until his next hockey night. So we don't have catastrophic failure of the bearing - we have something more complex. In terms of catastrophic failure, roller bearings are known to fail faster under heavier load. If you double the load, you reduce the expected life of the bearing by about ten times. There are a variety of mechanisms that cause this, ranging from the behavior of the lubricant to physical pitting of the inner bearing surfaces under the forces involved. Here, though, the right explanation probably involves heat, and maybe also deformation under load. I could hand-wave a plausible explanation involving increased load causing more friction in the bearing and thus more heat, leading to more thermal expansion, with some parts inside the bearing expanding more than others due to uneven heating or being made of different material, leading to more friction, and so on. The bottom line is I don't know the right answer to the original question, though.

I predict if you switch to smaller diameter wheels that you probably won't solve the problem with bearing friction. It's possible you could, if the problem is restricted to particular bearings and switching wheels made you skate differently so that it transferred load off of the problem wheels onto other wheels. But the fundamental physics won't change here; the physics argument I gave above doesn't depend on the wheel diameter any more than on the wheel hardness. You probably would solve the problem of one wheel contacting the boot, though: the chassis and bearing are the same distance from the boot, so when you switch to a smaller wheel it won't be as close to the boot.

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Postby dodint » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:55 pm

First off, yeah, fantastic post. Thanks!

I didn't think I would solve the bearing issue without buying new bearings; whether that be a higher quality bearing or just ones that are not worn. I did assume heat was the culprit given the fluctuating nature of the problem.

The only purpose of buying small diameter wheels is to eliminate contact with the boot, as you said. The rep at Inline Warehouse said I could size down and not have a negative impact on the chassis, so I ordered some 72mm wheels to pair with my existing 76mm wheels.

He did say that I would increase the open space between the wheels; no idea why that was notable.

Thanks again, entertaining read.

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Postby mikey » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:17 am

That's funny, I surveyed everyone I could find that knows roller hockey skates well and the unanimous answer was wheel hardness solves this haha ...even one guy who skates like an ice player and is a big guy, so he really digs in...

That said, I can't argue with Dan (awesome post, by the way, we actually did science yesterday after all) of course...so I am going to move on with my life and wish dodint well...

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Postby meow » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:21 am

They should make wheels for the full figured man

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Postby dodint » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:21 am

Only thing I can really think is that a harder wheel has less grip so the energy is being dissipated by sliding around laterally instead of being retained by digging in. But my only analog is racing tires so I'm way out of my wheelhouse. Thanks for asking around, you're probably right in the end. Maybe something I'll try out next season.

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Postby Dan H » Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:21 pm

Well, note carefully I said wheel hardness has nothing to do with the load on the bearings - not that it has nothing to do with the friction problem, which could be caused by some combination of load and other things that do depend upon wheel hardness. The neat thing about science is that we tend to know the right answer already if we do the right experiments - we just need to explain them with the correct model. If you provided me with experimental evidence that harder wheels lead to less bearing friction, I would start thinking along the lines of: maybe harder wheels deform less under load, which maybe deforms the bearing less since the wheels around them stay more circular, leading to less heating in the bearing, and so on. So, Mikey, you're not definitely wrong about everything here. You just provided a physically implausible explanation on your first try. That's an easy mistake to make. Physics is hard.

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Postby shoeshine boy » Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:25 am

How thin skinned are your refs? Holy buckets
well, we had one guy who was just the biggest a**hole. he was the dirtiest player in a 9 division, 1000+ player league and he made absolutely everyone else in our division miserable. I remember once he hacked my goalie after the whistle so I said, "Hey, don't hit my goalie like that." and he turned around and screamed, "WHY DON'T YOU JUST STFU!!!!"
we convinced the league to move him up a level just so we could get rid of him. the very next season he did something, I can't remember what that got him a Match Penalty and 1 year suspension. :scared:

I suspect he was the reason they instituted this policy but he's gone so I don't see the purpose.

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Postby dodint » Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:09 pm

I suck at hockey.

My only achievement tonight was a well timed dive in front of a shot.

We lost.

All I have to show for it is the imprint of a puck on my rib cage. Which is funny enough to make it worth it.

Back to back this week, so I get to suck again tomorrow.

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Postby Lemon Berry Lobster » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:29 am

Is your jersey number 58? Sounds like it should be.

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Postby meow » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:34 am

Way to sacrifice the body.

MR25
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Postby MR25 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:02 am

Is your jersey number 58? Sounds like it should be.

Nah. He wears 19 in honor of his favorite player, Beau Bennett.

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Postby mikey » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:03 am

Bennett, technically, did nothing but sacrifice his body...

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Postby dodint » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:30 am

I'm bummed out by all this, though I should've managed expectations better.

I haven't played competitive hockey in 19 years.
I've put on about 70lbs since then.
I've never played inline hockey.

Whooo-boy, do I suck balls. I was never a strong skater but the dynamics of inline skating really amplify my weakness. I can't pivot or change directions for ****, and my awareness is completely gone. You'd call me a pylon if I could stay upright.

Last night, summed up in 8 seconds:

Image

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Postby meow » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:38 am

Oh no. Did you get a dash on that play? Seems like the one dude in orange fist pumps.

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Postby dodint » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:46 am

Yeah. That's why I had the little tantrum with the stick.



It's about ~8:50 if you want the full experience (why would you?)

I skate better backwards than forwards. I just can't get any momentum from a start when skating forward, no idea what my problem is. Crossovers are fine, skating backwards is fine. But just moving forward is like skating in sand.

I think I'm going to move back to defense for the rest of this season until my conditioning improves, my skating improves, and my vision improves. At forward I'm never in position to forecheck and I'm always way behind on the backcheck. At least at D I can keep the game in front of me. The real issue with that is I never developed a slapshot because I was a center and had/have a really nice wrister so I'm kind of useless at the point as well.

Tonight should be better.

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