Hockey Randomness

Lelldorin
Posts: 530
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:45 am
Location: Wildantor, Sweden

Hockey Randomness

Postby Lelldorin » Thu Feb 18, 2021 12:27 pm

That list reminds me that Lindros was great for more than one season... Probably one of my favourite players in his prime with both skill and power..
If only he could have kept his head up.
Yeah, I know he was a Flyer but still. How many players in the history have been more dominant/ have had a better peak? Lemieux, but how many more? (Now mikey will come and hit me in the head with a stick)

meow
Posts: 19034
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:53 am
Location: You cannot reasonably ask a man to sneeze into more buttholes

Hockey Randomness

Postby meow » Thu Feb 18, 2021 12:40 pm

You know what record Lindros has that will never get beat?

Number of on-ice naps taken.

I’ll never not make that joke when his name comes up.

mikey
Posts: 29975
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:58 pm
Location: More of a before-rehab friend...
Contact:

Hockey Randomness

Postby mikey » Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:17 pm

Lindros's peak is so strong, that even in his injury riddled, short career, I still consider him a top 100 player of all time and a HOFer...those are tough asks out of me...his peak is absurd, though for sure...

NTP66
Posts: 36525
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:00 pm
Location: FUCΚ! Even in the future nothing works.

Hockey Randomness

Postby NTP66 » Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:18 pm

Lindros's peak is so strong, that even in his injury riddled, short career, I still consider him a top 100 player of all time and a HOFer...those are tough asks out of me...his peak is absurd, though for sure...
I'd agree with this.

mikey
Posts: 29975
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:58 pm
Location: More of a before-rehab friend...
Contact:

Hockey Randomness

Postby mikey » Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:26 pm

I give major points for changing the game too...after Lindros got drafted, there was a stretch for the decade (ending with Hugh Jessiman) of teams trying to draft the next Lindros (with a fatal flaw) and the next guy that could stop him...

NTP66
Posts: 36525
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:00 pm
Location: FUCΚ! Even in the future nothing works.

Hockey Randomness

Postby NTP66 » Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:31 pm

Source of the post the next guy that could stop him...

meow
Posts: 19034
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:53 am
Location: You cannot reasonably ask a man to sneeze into more buttholes

Hockey Randomness

Postby meow » Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:53 pm

Source of the post the next guy that could stop him...
Straight into my veins.

shmenguin
Posts: 15338
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:37 pm
Location: people notice my car when its shined up

Hockey Randomness

Postby shmenguin » Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:54 pm

With even an ounce of charisma and less eggs scrambled, 88 would probably be the most fun player to have on your favorite team...ever?

mikey
Posts: 29975
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:58 pm
Location: More of a before-rehab friend...
Contact:

Hockey Randomness

Postby mikey » Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:58 pm

Too tough of a prompt to crack open...

DigitalGypsy66
Posts: 12498
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:33 pm
Location: Iodine State

Hockey Randomness

Postby DigitalGypsy66 » Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:01 pm

Source of the post the next guy that could stop him...
Straight into my veins.
Man, Peter Jackson needs to work his magic on that clip and get that to 60fps 4K. Glorious.

NTP66
Posts: 36525
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:00 pm
Location: FUCΚ! Even in the future nothing works.

Hockey Randomness

Postby NTP66 » Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:03 pm

NSFW (music):



Kaspy will always be one of my favorites.

DigitalGypsy66
Posts: 12498
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:33 pm
Location: Iodine State

Hockey Randomness

Postby DigitalGypsy66 » Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:06 pm

He's now a realtor in Miami, fwiw. :lol:

Dickie Dunn
Posts: 20006
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:12 pm
Location: Bruton Gaster

Hockey Randomness

Postby Dickie Dunn » Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:10 pm

I certainly didn’t wake up this morning expecting to read a Hugh Jessiman name drop.

Lemon Berry Lobster
Posts: 12859
Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 3:13 pm
Location: dodint is a millennial

Hockey Randomness

Postby Lemon Berry Lobster » Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:15 pm

Lindros's peak is so strong, that even in his injury riddled, short career, I still consider him a top 100 player of all time and a HOFer...those are tough asks out of me...his peak is absurd, though for sure...
I'm just happy the Pens were lucky enough to draft #101

meow
Posts: 19034
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:53 am
Location: You cannot reasonably ask a man to sneeze into more buttholes

Hockey Randomness

Postby meow » Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:28 pm

NSFW (music):



Kaspy will always be one of my favorites.
What an animal. I still say the reason he blew so many guys up was because he didn’t look like he was going to have enough leverage to smear you. If he didn’t low bridge you, he came at you almost straight up and down. Not a lot of leg bend. Not a lot of hip bend. Still laid the wood to ya

NTP66
Posts: 36525
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:00 pm
Location: FUCΚ! Even in the future nothing works.

Hockey Randomness

Postby NTP66 » Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:30 pm

NSFW (music):



Kaspy will always be one of my favorites.
What an animal. I still say the reason he blew so many guys up was because he didn’t look like he was going to have enough leverage to smear you. If he didn’t low bridge you, he came at you almost straight up and down. Not a lot of leg bend. Not a lot of hip bend. Still laid the wood to ya
I feel the same way. Half of his hits start out looking like it'll just be a nudge, then he follows through and the other guy is just blown the **** up.

Faftorial
Posts: 5116
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:35 pm
Location: Lengeschder

Hockey Randomness

Postby Faftorial » Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:48 pm

Love those hip checks.

shmenguin
Posts: 15338
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:37 pm
Location: people notice my car when its shined up

Hockey Randomness

Postby shmenguin » Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:18 pm

I want to arrive at a common conclusion on this, so I’ll change the angle a little.

Gretzky as best goal scorer ever...make the argument that a guy who fell out of the top 10 before he was 30 is the greatest all time. I’m not talking about greatest overall. I’m talking about scoring in particular.

If you tell me it’s because of his injury and not because unscreened slappers and soft on-ice passes into the net didnt jive with modern goaltending, then I need to hear more. It’s not convincing that he could still be an elite overall player and set up man but just couldn’t score like he used to because of a back injury (which a certain guy we know didn’t seem to struggle with so severely).

mikey
Posts: 29975
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:58 pm
Location: More of a before-rehab friend...
Contact:

Hockey Randomness

Postby mikey » Thu Feb 18, 2021 4:20 pm

I don't have Gretzky as the best pure goal scorer ever because I'm not a donkey that just counts totals and goes, "see, he's the GOAT"...

For me, the best goal scorer of all time is Mario Lemieux (which, if you didn't know me, you'd assume is just Pens board bias, but we know that I'm not that I'd hope)...the different ways that Mario could score, his variety of strong shots, his finishing moves in close, the reach, all of it makes him the best I've ever seen. I think Bobby Hull and Alexander Ovechkin are in that conversation. I think Bossy and Gretzky and Howe are probably in the next tier there. Richard might be in either of those two tiers I'd say...then you start to get down towards Esposito, maybe Hull Jr. etc.

I'm not sure if I'm answering your prompt or even if there is one...if the question about Gretzky's goal scoring prowess sliding as he got older and how it was relative to the league, there's certainly a case. In my estimation, the NHL was at a very weak point in the early 80's for various reasons, reasons that I believe I have gone over before, but you've been away (and don't remember every single word I say...probably), so I can go down that road as needed...Gretzky took full advantage of it (as did several also-rans)...Gretzky as a pure scorer gave us one last taste in the 1997 playoffs, which is as close to "vintage" Gretzky as we had seen since 1993...he had a terrific postseason before the Rangers turned into a pumpkin at the hands of the Legion of Doom...

shmenguin
Posts: 15338
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:37 pm
Location: people notice my car when its shined up

Hockey Randomness

Postby shmenguin » Thu Feb 18, 2021 4:38 pm

well this was not as controversial of a take as I thought.
Gretzky took full advantage of it
he did. he benefited from learning how to exploit holes that existed in the 80's that don't exist now. particularly with goal scoring.

i don't think we can have the discussion about why he's simply not the greatest player of all time (i've come to realize it's Mario, pending what McDavid does leadership-wise) because there's no way to to a point-by-point analysis with someone closer to the history. but I would, however, like to tamp down the argument that because the gap between him and #2 was so large, that this somehow proves anything. he was also #1 in goals by an insane margin, and we agree that doesn't tell the story. shouldn't with assists either. immature systems lead to statistical chaos. early 80's NHL was still in flux - considerably more than the fairly static game we see this century. and 99 found the cheat code. why didn't other guys? dunno...but that's a different discussion.

mikey
Posts: 29975
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:58 pm
Location: More of a before-rehab friend...
Contact:

Hockey Randomness

Postby mikey » Thu Feb 18, 2021 4:58 pm

Was Mario Lemieux the most technically skilled player of all time? I'd probably back that. Aliens vs us to save the planet, 1v1. I tap Lemieux over Gretzky. Gretzky had the better career, and it's not particularly close either for me.

Factoring in a blend of player and career, as I like to do...
1. Gretzky
2. Orr
3. Howe
4. Lemieux
[break]
others...

----------------
Other guys did take advantage of the cheat code of the early 80's, just like folks took advantage of WWII years.
Perhaps Maruk just practiced really hard in 1981 and 1982? https://www.hockey-reference.com/player ... kde01.html
Perhaps Rogers did too? https://www.hockey-reference.com/player ... rmi01.html

It also extended the careers of older players because the league was so weak...look no further than >0.5 ppg player playing into his 50's (!): https://www.hockey-reference.com/player ... ego01.html

We saw similar dominance from legitimately talented players during WWII...
Maurice Richard never got back to his career highs that he set in his second season: https://www.hockey-reference.com/player ... ama01.html - even though the league added 20 (!) additional games to the docket during his career...a 40% increase in games, but only got as high as 86% of his career high after the War years...

But other guys just got really, really good for a really really short amount of the exact same time by coincidence... https://www.hockey-reference.com/player ... nhe01.html ; https://www.hockey-reference.com/player ... hcl01.html ; https://www.hockey-reference.com/player ... rlo01.html

I didn't intentionally not address anything...

shmenguin
Posts: 15338
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:37 pm
Location: people notice my car when its shined up

Hockey Randomness

Postby shmenguin » Thu Feb 18, 2021 5:14 pm

Gretzky had the better career, and it's not particularly close either for me.
i don't like this phrasing. too many outside variables impact your career, independent of your ability. but i guess it's not helpful for me to be more abstract and just say "best". maybe that's really the issue. 99 had the best career but 66 was more skilled but howe did it for longer but orr was more of a pioneer but mcdavid has the most raw ability...and so forth.

...and i'm not married to the "raw ability" thing for mcdavid. i have a hard time describing what his quality is. but he's an alien. like completely inhuman in confusing ways. bure was a little bit like this, i think, but it's just not the same. he's the biggest freak ever to wear skates. he's #1 pick in a pick up game.

but anyway, the game is complicated and there are more ways to be "good" than in any other sport, i think. so regardless of the ickiness of comparing across eras, maybe this is too tough a task to figure out "best".

mikey
Posts: 29975
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:58 pm
Location: More of a before-rehab friend...
Contact:

Hockey Randomness

Postby mikey » Thu Feb 18, 2021 5:39 pm

Yeah, I use "best" as, like I said, a blend of career and ability as best I can...

As such, I don't have Mike Gartner as a top 100 or 150 or 200 player of all time for instance...while Henri Richard is easily top 100, maybe even top 50...

It's tough, but not impossible to compare across eras...just need to understand the relative quality of the eras and then the dominance/impact of the players in question...it's a process for sure...but it's doable, speaking from years of experience...

Lelldorin
Posts: 530
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:45 am
Location: Wildantor, Sweden

Hockey Randomness

Postby Lelldorin » Thu Feb 18, 2021 5:45 pm

For one game you pick Lemieux. As a franchise player you pick one of the other three on mikey 's list.
It is a bit like choosing between Lindros and Yzerman.

mikey
Posts: 29975
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:58 pm
Location: More of a before-rehab friend...
Contact:

Hockey Randomness

Postby mikey » Thu Feb 18, 2021 5:47 pm

One game Lindros vs career Yzerman, that is...?

I don't care to, but there's a single number that could make a case for picking Yzerman for both, and that number is 155...it is not completely insignificant...

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests