Hockey Randomness

[mikey]

I just don't think the process should work like an arbitration hearing.

Oh for sure, that I agree with completely...but someone wanted to talk about history with me, so I will gladly go down the road because there hasn't been a hockey discussion here in two weeks haha

[Gaucho]

I just don't think the process should work like an arbitration hearing.

Oh for sure, that I agree with completely...but someone wanted to talk about history with me, so I will gladly go down the road because there hasn't been a hockey discussion here in two weeks haha

I enjoy the discussion.

[mikey]

What about defensemen (who can't legitimately win the Art Ross), defensive players (like Bergeron) and goalies...?

Thanks for the data =)

Does Bergeron fit in the HoF? Honest question. I could stand behind him being one of the best two-way centers during the last decade. But more or less pure destroyers of offense (Draper?) are not so impressive to me.

I thought about counting Selke trophies for defensive forwards, but thought it was a bit

Goalies should be captured by the All-Star Teams if we should go with silverware or stats. GAA and save % is affected by the team defense. Otherwise you would have to compare goalies to their back-ups.

Defensemen have four All-Star spots each year. If you want to be considered elite you should be able to grab one of those once in a while? Defensive defensemen would be hard to capture stats-wise?

My biggest problem is that I would like Oates, Yzerman and perhaps Francis to be in. (And perhaps Markus Näslund out) Then I would have to go with top placements in the Art Ross, but I would not like players that were good but not elite to enter. For example someone that comes at place 20 during 10 years should not be in without any high places.

So I basically would have liked someone to receive at least ONE All-Star place (or perhaps a Selke) to even be considered for the Hall. The definition of elite should be that you were among the very best at your position.

Yeah, Bergeron is going to be a Hall of Famer...pure destroyers, no, not many of them make it, but Bergeron doesn't fall into that category certainly...he's as consistent of a player as you'll ever see too...

Even comparing to backups is a bit of a folly...have to view them in the framework of scheduling: quality of opponents, second half of b2b, etc.

Difficult to measure defensive defensemen, yes. These days, points are king for the Norris...hurts players that might deserve some consideration, like Kevin Lowe for instance.

The list goes deeper than Oates, Yzerman and Francis though...Peter Stastny, Jacques Lemaire, Doug Gilmour, Henri Richard probably doesn't have a lot of accolades but is one of the finest centers in history...while you're kicking out Naslund, are you gonna find a place for (your boy?) Mats Sundin...he's gonna get slighted pretty hard in this methodology...

I agree with your last sentence, you need to be among the best at your position to be in the HOF...but talent is not distributed equally over time, nor is level of competition. Ben Jonson, Christopher Marlowe, William Shakespeare, despite the population of England at the time, never has a finer cluster of writers been produced before or after...yet, England at the time had roughly the population that Houston, Texas does now...yet, no great writers have been produced by Houston...fast forward, Mick Jagger, John Lennon, Paul McCartney all at the same time...onesies and twosies since, but never a cluster like that...

So by trophy counting (and the like), you create a shadow cast by greats...Roy/Brodeur/Hasek make it very tough on Belfour/Vanbiesbrouck/CuJo...meanwhile, Bill Durnan had a rather easy go of it, didn't he...?

[Lelldorin]

Gretzky and Lemieux cast great shadows during 80's early 90's as well... Which sucks for many good centers during that era. Ray Bourque also occupied many places. The third All-Star team certainly helps to narrow down the elite players each year, but it seems to have existed for only a decade or something?

The benefit with the All-Star teams is that they should be somewhat more fair to non-offensive players than looking at real numbers. But finding elite goalies with only two places a year is difficult.

[Lelldorin]

Let me give it a try anyway

Five times in the first or second All-Star Team should be enough to make the Hall...

Your numbers seems to be a bit off for old players compared to the wiki page?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NHL_All-Star_Team
Gordie Howe 3 vs 21 All-Star Teams
Jacques Plant 3 vs 7

So the first ones to make it are the ones below. Looks kind of legit to me.
(Do you prefer them in order of number of All-Star Teams instead of alphabetical?)

Centers
Bobby Clarke
Bryan Trottier
Gilbert Perreault
Joe Sakic
Joe Thornton
Marcel Dionne
Mario Lemieux
Phil Esposito
Sidney Crosby
Wayne Gretzky

Left Wings
Alexander Ovechkin
Bill Barber
Bobby Hull
Brendan Shanahan
Frank Mahovlich
Ilya Kovalchuk
John LeClair
Luc Robitaille
Michel Goulet
Paul Kariya
Steve Shutt

Right Wings
Brett Hull
Gordie Howe
Guy Lafleur
Jari Kurri
Jarome Iginla
Jaromir Jagr
Marian Hossa
Martin St. Louis
Mike Bossy
Pavel Bure
Teemu Selanne

Defensemen
Al MacInnis
Bobby Orr
Brad Park
Brian Leetch
Börje Salming
Chris Chelios
Chris Pronger
Denis Potvin
Doug Wilson
Drew Doughty
Guy Lapointe
Larry Murphy
Larry Robinson
Mark Howe
Nicklas Lidstrom
Paul Coffey
Phil Housley
Ray Bourque
Rob Blake
Rod Langway
Scott Stevens
Serge Savard
Sergei Gonchar
Shea Weber
Zdeno Chara

Goalies
Dominik Hasek
Ed Belfour
Ken Dryden
Martin Brodeur
Patrick Roy
Tony Esposito

[NTP66]

Damn.

Friends and first responders have identified victim in early morning drowning at the Hamilton Harbour as former @NHL goalie Ray Emery. Ray played the @ottawasenators, @NHLBlackhawks, @AnaheimDucks and the @NHLFlyers. He was swimming with several friends & never surfaced #HamOnt

[Lelldorin]

Adding players that have 5 top 10 finished in points adds:

Centers
Adam Oates
Darryl Sittler
Denis Savard
Jean Beliveau
Jean Ratelle
Norm Ullman
Peter Forsberg
Peter Stastny
Ron Francis
Stan Mikita
Steve Yzerman

Wings
John Bucyk
Rod Gilbert

And adding 3+ Selke trophies adds
Bob Gainey
Guy Carbonneau
Jere Lehtinen
Pavel Datsyuk
Patric Bergeron

[dodint]

**** Bobby Clarke.

[Gaucho]

See, Pavel Datsyuk is 100% a HOFer for me.

[meow]

One of the first goalies to test out the new goalie chest protector with the slimmed down specs took a shot off the collarbone within the first 5 minutes and had to leave the ice.

[NTP66]

Next time start with a guy who doesn't have fragile bones.

[meow]

Is that you, Godric?

[NTP66]

Kill yourself.

[mikey]

I'm not concerned...more goalie injuries means more goal$$$$$$

[Lemon Berry Lobster]

More importantly more chances for yinzers to complain if Murray gets hurt again.

[meow]

There was a smart - and dare I say easy - way to do this. Boy oh boy. They did not do it that way.

[mikey]

I'd be an audience to this theory of yours...

[meow]

They trimmed the shoulders, collarbone, and upper arms. They also made it closer to the body. Like a slim fit shirt. That's where the injuries are going to happen. A chest protector protects because there is some air between the pad and the body. That little bit of space helps dimision the force of the puck on the body. Having the pad tight to the body will have more shots bite goalies. The collarbone trim is the most ludacris.

I'm ok with the vertical should pads being tightened down, but everything else is a tough sell to me. If you want to go after some padding, go at the leg pads and gloves again.

[NTP66]

Artemi Panarin gives Blue Jackets a Sept. 13 deadline

Interesting. That's from an Athletic article, paywalled, so I didn't bother posting the link.

[Lemon Berry Lobster]

For what though? To provide and extension offer, make the team better...?

[NTP66]

Who knows. I expect him to be gone next year.

[Lemon Berry Lobster]

Welp off to HF for its only purpose, getting info from paywall articles...

[mikey]

He doesn't want to live there...NY or LA is my guess...

[Lemon Berry Lobster]

From Aaron Portzline's tweet:

for all off-ice discussions

What ever that means.

[meow]

He wants to be near a body of water. No joke. That’s his demand