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faftorial
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Postby faftorial » Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:58 pm

WAKE UP, GMJR!!!1
:lol:

MR25
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Postby MR25 » Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:05 pm

You and I must have a different definition of "in tears".

Also, cool they renounced their pick. But they shouldn't have made it in the first place, which is why my reaction is more "meh, k" than whatever you thought it was going to be.

It feels like they're only doing the right thing because of the backlash, not because of the psychopath Miller is. It's the right gesture, but it feels empty. Similar to how Miller apologized to everyone but his victim and only showed remorse for being caught and facing consequence for it.
You never answered. If he's not fit to play hockey, what is he fit to do?

Didn't realize that was specifically directed at me...

Honestly, I don't care. He should go out into the world and follow the same process as the rest of us. If a company doesn't want to hire him because of his history, so be it.

The only thing that really mattered was that he shouldnt have been given an opportunity to play in the NHL/North American professional leagues. That opportunity is earned by people who aren't psycho/sociopaths.

faftorial
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Postby faftorial » Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:10 pm

He needs to pay someone to rehabilitate his image.

King Colby
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Postby King Colby » Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:00 pm

You and I must have a different definition of "in tears".

Also, cool they renounced their pick. But they shouldn't have made it in the first place, which is why my reaction is more "meh, k" than whatever you thought it was going to be.

It feels like they're only doing the right thing because of the backlash, not because of the psychopath Miller is. It's the right gesture, but it feels empty. Similar to how Miller apologized to everyone but his victim and only showed remorse for being caught and facing consequence for it.
You never answered. If he's not fit to play hockey, what is he fit to do?

Didn't realize that was specifically directed at me...

Honestly, I don't care. He should go out into the world and follow the same process as the rest of us. If a company doesn't want to hire him because of his history, so be it.

The only thing that really mattered was that he shouldnt have been given an opportunity to play in the NHL/North American professional leagues. That opportunity is earned by people who aren't psycho/sociopaths.
Why is that different? He's qualified for that job due to his talents.

Is it only because of the public figure status?

MR25
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Postby MR25 » Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:17 pm

Public figure status and the whole nature of being a professional athlete, as in it being an exclusive privilege, not a right. There's a higher standard of conduct required, and just because he's "good" at his sport doesn't mean he deserves the opportunity. There are other standards to be held by, and he doesn't reach them, which means he loses the privilege of getting to be a professional athlete.

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Postby Jim » Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:43 pm

Public figure status and the whole nature of being a professional athlete, as in it being an exclusive privilege, not a right. There's a higher standard of conduct required, and just because he's "good" at his sport doesn't mean he deserves the opportunity. There are other standards to be held by, and he doesn't reach them, which means he loses the privilege of getting to be a professional athlete.

Wrong

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Postby mikey » Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:43 pm

Higher standard...?

MR25
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Postby MR25 » Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:47 pm

Yeah. Don't be a racist who abuses mentally handicapped kids. Not really that difficult.

I don't really care if people disagree. He got his punishment. Hopefully no one else tries to sign him.

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Postby mikey » Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:55 pm

Ok, easy...I don't think anyone is backing or otherwise validating the actions...

Just trying to understand what the world looks like from your angle...

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Postby NTP66 » Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:57 pm

I look forward to moving on from this topic.

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Postby MR25 » Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:13 pm

I think I've been very clear about how I see this. There's no place for someone like Miller in the league, and he deserves all of the consequences of his actions.

I'm not really sure what else you want to hear from me...

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Postby mikey » Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:58 pm

If I wanted more I would have asked...no one's after you, we're (well, I, at least) am just being conversational...

King Colby
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Postby King Colby » Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:12 pm

Why can't he be afforded the opportunity to channel his past transgressions into using the platform to be an advocate against people like his younger and dumber self? Why don't people deserve a chance at redemption? Who have we helped by blackballing him from the league?

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Postby MR25 » Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:25 pm

Why can't he be afforded the opportunity to channel his past transgressions into using the platform to be an advocate against people like his younger and dumber self? Why don't people deserve a chance at redemption? Who have we helped by blackballing him from the league?

Channeling his past transgressions to be an advocate requires some semblance of self-reflection and acknowledgement that what he did was wrong beyond "I'm doing this to save face".

He's had 4 years to do it, and he hasn't done it. He has yet to actually apologize directly to the victim. The judge at his hearing even said (paraphrase) "It seems to me the only remorse you are showing is for yourself and facing consequences, not remorse for the actions themselves."

He's had his chance. He didn't take it.

Who has this helped? It helped his victim and victim's family, who (unless someone **** up and signs him) do not have to watch the abuser get to play professional sports. That's all that really matters in the end - the victim. I feel like that's sort of been lost in this discussion. People are too worried about "Well why are we killing this kid's future" without taking into account the victim who has to live with the scars of the torment he received at the hands of Miller for at least 6 years.

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Postby Kraftster » Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:31 pm

Stuff with Miller is wild. Conduct was abhorrent, but maybe he deserves a chance to be an adult with a fully formed brain? I guess not. Should he be visibly branded so we can ensure the rest of his life is sufficiently miserable?

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Postby MR25 » Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:36 pm

All I'm saying is playong in the NHL is a privilege, not a right. He voided his privilege with his actions. Full stop.

Whatever he wants to do after this is up to him and whoever he interacts with. If he applies for a job and they don't want to hire him because this shows up in a background check, that's 100% his fault.

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Postby King Colby » Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:41 pm

Ok I'm going to let you die on this hill because this is starting to actually become freakishly weird.

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Postby Kraftster » Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:42 pm

Sorry, @M@MR25, my post was written before your longer post, so it wasn't meant initially as a direct response to the long post.

What job is not a privilege?

If we strip away all of the things that are "privilege," what're we left with? Should he get government welfare and healthcare? Why should he be supported by the government? Any affirmative answer is probably rooted somewhere in compassion. Which should be the operative lens through which the whole thing is considered.

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Postby MR25 » Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:45 pm

I 100% feel strongly about this, as someone who was bullied when they were younger, and who never saw their bullies get actionable consequence levied against them.

That stuff still affects me to this day. I don't have any sympathy when bullies get called out for their actions.

So yeah, I am going to die on this hill, because I can't fathom why people would think he deserves a "2nd chance" (read: play in the NHL) for what he did.

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Postby nocera » Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:48 pm

He deserves a second chance as long as he shows remorse and genuinely tries to be a better human. By all accounts, this has not happened.

MR25
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Postby MR25 » Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:51 pm

Source of the post What job is not a privilege?
Little too meta for what I mean.

A professional athlete has a different status, both socially and economically, than someone who does accounting and works budgets for a company. That status is most definitely a privilege that the vast majority of us "normal people" will never obtain, and IMO someone who abuses a mentally disabled kid for 6+ years and doesn't show remorse for it (outside of feeling sorry for himself for being caught) doesn't deserve to have that privilege that being a professional athlete brings.

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Postby MR25 » Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:01 pm

Also, probably going to be the last I say on this, I think we've discussed this enough.

Kraftster
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Postby Kraftster » Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:15 pm

I 100% feel strongly about this, as someone who was bullied when they were younger, and who never saw their bullies get actionable consequence levied against them.

That stuff still affects me to this day. I don't have any sympathy when bullies get called out for their actions.

So yeah, I am going to die on this hill, because I can't fathom why people would think he deserves a "2nd chance" (read: play in the NHL) for what he did.

That is awful, and I'm sorry to hear that.

I believe we're squarely in agree to disagree territory, but I will just say that I think the problem of line drawing here on the privilege issue or what it means to be given a second chance is vital to think about. Whether the Coyotes motivation for not drafting or parting ways with Miller is retributive or grounded in some set of organizational values, it would presumably be hard to tell any other potential employer that it is not entitled to exercise the same judgment. And where does that leave us as we work our way down the level of privilege continuum? And what if the purity test being used in these instances (obviously in cases more marginal than this one) is one that has evolved from the time of the conduct/incident in question? (these are meant to be rhetorical questions)

Mercy and compassion seem to be the only scalable bases for evaluating these sorts of situations. It seems clear to me that the obvious best case scenario here is some organization drafts Miller, and based upon those organizational values many seem to believe should have kept Miller from being drafted, the org invests in counseling for Miller, hopefully leading him to a remorse far more true than what he's likely to feel based upon instead being punished. And that should help the victim/victim's family more than seeing his abuser suffer.

King Colby
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Postby King Colby » Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:19 pm

It seems clear to me that the obvious best case scenario here is some organization drafts Miller, and based upon those organizational values many seem to believe should have kept Miller from being drafted, the org invests in counseling for Miller, hopefully leading him to a remorse far more true than what he's likely to feel based upon instead being punished. And that should help the victim/victim's family more than seeing his abuser suffer.
:thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

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Postby Gaucho » Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:50 am

He deserves a second chance as long as he shows remorse and genuinely tries to be a better human. By all accounts, this has not happened.
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