Hockey Randomness

[mikey]

I have no interest in seeing Patrick Marleau make the HOF...


Though, I've heard that he may be the fastest player to go from equipment to street clothes after a game...like guys are still getting their tape off and he's putting on his tie...whatever that's worth...

[willeyeam]

The only players in the history of hockey to have more goals and not get in are Jagr, Ovie and Tkachuck. Jagr and Ovie will obviously get in..

That said, Marleau never really led the league in anything, his highest season was 44 goals, no championships.. made 3 all star teams. He's probably a no at this point.

[willeyeam]

I have no interest in seeing Patrick Marleau make the HOF...


Though, I've heard that he may be the fastest player to go from equipment to street clothes after a game...like guys are still getting their tape off and he's putting on his tie...whatever that's worth...

probably has a hot wife

[mikey]

Iginla too, but that's an interesting point...and Iggy is getting in too...

That said, Marleau is a little bit of a product of his DOB and having the opportunity to play so many games...he's probably a great face for the HOVG...but committee seems really intent of rewarding career totals for a reason that isn't obvious to me...so who knows...the more they water it down with Gartner, Andreychuk, Nieuwendyk, Ciccarelli and the like, the less appeal it holds...

I guess on the back of that point, I'd like to hear the case for Marleau over Pierre Turgeon even...

[Lelldorin]

I would go something broadly like this:

1 Hart Trophy and you are in

Otherwise you need to have been on the first all-star team at least three times (meaning that you were the best in your position for at least three years)

You could also enter if you were very good and received a few Conn Smythes.

So Iginla should be in. Alfie not.

[mikey]

So Jose Theodore, Al Rollins and Buddy O'Connor make it over Alfredsson because they had one good season...?

The only player that won "a few Conn Smythes" is Patrick Roy, who doesn't need any more help haha...

Steve Yzerman and Ron Francis have a combined one First- or Second-Team All-Star nod in over 40 years of hockey (Yzerman, the year after Gretzky retired). Neither of these players are even close to HOFers with these guidelines...

[Lelldorin]

So Jose Theodore, Al Rollins and Buddy O'Connor make it over Alfredsson because they had one good season...?

The only player that won "a few Conn Smythes" is Patrick Roy, who doesn't need any more help haha...

Steve Yzerman and Ron Francis have a combined one First- or Second-Team All-Star nod in over 40 years of hockey (Yzerman, the year after Gretzky retired). Neither of these players are even close to HOFers with these guidelines...

Damn. Forgot about Theodore. Knew that Jim Carey was good for a very short time.

I know that it is a blunt instrument to have rigid rules but I would have these as guidelines. Yzerman was close both in trophies and playoff performance.

Basically, I would say that I prefer Lindros or Forsberg compared to Sundin and Alfredsson. A good peak of a few years beats 10+ seasons of quite good.

Edit: So yes. Yzerman can be in fame hall of fame

[mikey]

I am a peak/prime over career myself. I'll take 7 years of dominance over 20 years of 50-point seasons. But that rigidity would cut the HOF down considerably...and it lacks context. Gretzky won 9 Hart Trophies...it was really tough to sneak one in there if you played in his era, and then his career overlapped with Lemieux's...so from 1980 to 2000, two of the four best players to ever play were dominating everyone...

Meanwhile, take 2010 and 2011 for example: irrelevant goalies win the Vezina both years (Ryan Miller, Tim Thomas) and not HOF-caliber players winning the Hart (Henrik Sedin and Corey Perry) because the star competition was so low (or injured). So Henrik Sedin is invited into a place where Ron Francis isn't...

Corey Perry is going to a place where Luc Robitaille (who never got a single, solitary Hart vote in his career) isn't...

There are 58 Hart Trophy winners ever. A solid six of them are not HOFers off hand: Perry, Sedin, Theodore, Rollins, O'Connor, Tommy Anderson...and Carey Price is not on a HOF pace...and, frankly, Taylor Hall isn't either, unless this year was the launch point...I'm also (somewhat unpopularly) not a big fan of Babe Pratt even being in the HOF, he won a Hart in the war-depleted league in 19......44 maybe? Something like that...

I don't think trophy counting is the way to go, it lacks nuance for me...I don't know how Yzerman gets in under the criteria, but I'd be curious - as a thought exercise (because I clearly enjoy this) - what your criteria would be and what the HOF looks like after the fact...based on what you said above, I bet it's got like 70 players in it haha

[meow]

The decision to add guys to the Hall should be made solely on whether I like them or not.

[mikey]

We have a lot of common ground...so I think that plan is winning...

[Dickie Dunn]

I agree. **** Babe Pratt.

[mikey]

He ate just the cores, threw away the rest...during war time no less...

[Lelldorin]

I will try to improve my criteria a bit. But it might take a few hours before the post since I would like to be decent. (And I have to eat and sleep)

But my basic position is still that if you received a Hart, you should be close to the Hall of Fame.

[mikey]

Ok, while you freshen up, I'll start day drinking...we'll meet in the middle...

[Dickie Dunn]

He ate just the cores, threw away the rest...during war time no less...

Dude was a **** menace. Eat the entire damn thing like a demented man.

[Lelldorin]

Ok, while you freshen up, I'll start day drinking...we'll meet in the middle...

Time for me to sleep, but here is what I have right now. I started with season 1985-1986 and worked towards now.

My criteria where 3+ First All-Star or 5+ First/Second All-Star. Those 34 are in the bottom.

I then added Pronger, Niedermeyer and Thornton for 4 First/Second All-Star plus one Hart or Conn Smythe Trophy

Markus Näslund made it. I am not sure if he belongs...
Doughty and Selanne has 2+2 First/Second so they were close.
Perry and McDavid has one Hart each but only two All-Stars so they missed

Yzerman was really hard to fit. Only one first All-Star and one Conn-Smythe. I then began checking top-3-finishes in Art Ross, but he "only" had two as far as I could see. So the case for Yzerman is really one insane season, a few top 5-10 in Art Ross and several Stanley Cups.

Adam Oates has 3+ top-3-finishes in Art Ross, but I only looked until 1994 and then I got tired. So now I stop for tonight

The 34 that are in and delivered after 1985:
Al MacInnis
Alexander Ovechkin
Brett Hull
Brian Leetch
Chris Chelios
Dominik Hasek
Erik Karlsson
Evgeni Malkin
Jari Kurri
Jarome Iginla
Jaromir Jagr
Joe Sakic
John LeClair
Luc Robitaille
Mario Lemieux
Mark Howe
Mark Messier
Markus Näslund
Martin Brodeur
Martin St. Louis
Michel Goulet
Mike Bossy
Nicklas Lidström
Patrick Kane
Patrick Roy
Paul Coffey
Paul Kariya
Peter Forsberg
Ray Bourque
Scott Stevens
Sidney Crosby
Wayne Gretzky
Zdeno Chara

Edit: Link to my Excel Sheet
https://www.dropbox.com/s/k77o92key5wsr ... .xlsx?dl=0

[mikey]

I'll dump some info here, might make your life easier...

Player First Second Third Total
Wayne Gretzky 8 7 1 16
Mario Lemieux 5 4 9
Sidney Crosby 4 3 2 9
Phil Esposito 6 2 8
Bobby Clarke 2 2 3 7
Joe Thornton 1 3 2 6
Joe Sakic 3 2 5
Marcel Dionne 2 2 1 5
Bryan Trottier 2 2 1 5
Gilbert Perreault 2 3 5
Peter Forsberg 3 1 4
Steven Stamkos 2 2 4
Evgeni Malkin 3 3
Mark Messier 2 1 3
Eric Lindros 1 1 1 3
Steve Yzerman 1 2 3
Ron Francis 3 3
Peter Stastny 3 3
Henrik Sedin 2 2
Connor McDavid 2 2
Stan Mikita 1 1 2
Mats Sundin 2 2
Jonathan Toews 1 1 2
Mike Modano 1 1 2
Denis Savard 1 1 2
Ryan Getzlaf 1 1 2
Pavel Datsyuk 1 1 2
Dale Hawerchuk 1 1 2
Jean Beliveau 1 1 2
Darryl Sittler 1 1 2
Anze Kopitar 2 2
Doug Gilmour 2 2
Claude Giroux 2 2
Sergei Fedorov 1 1
John Tavares 1 1
Nathan MacKinnon 1 1
Jean Ratelle 1 1
Eric Staal 1 1
Pat LaFontaine 1 1
Adam Oates 1 1
Alexei Zhamnov 1 1
Dave Keon 1 1
Vincent Lecavalier 1 1
Alexei Yashin 1 1
Red Berenson 1 1
Walt Tzaczuk 1 1
Nicklas Backstrom 1 1
Norm Ullman 1 1
Doug Weight 1 1
Pete Mahovlich 1 1
Guy Chouinard 1 1
Barry Pederson 1 1

###

Player First Second Third Total
Alexander Ovechkin 6 2 2 10
Luc Robitaille 5 3 8
Michel Goulet 3 2 1 6
John LeClair 2 3 1 6
Bobby Hull 4 1 5
Paul Kariya 3 2 5
Brendan Shanahan 2 1 2 5
Frank Mahovlich 1 2 2 5
Steve Shutt 1 2 2 5
Bill Barber 1 2 2 5
Ilya Kovalchuk 1 1 3 5
Markus Naslund 3 1 4
Richard Martin 2 2 4
John Bucyk 1 1 2 4
Keith Tkachuk 2 2 4
Jamie Benn 2 1 3
Mark Messier 2 1 3
Kevin Stevens 1 2 3
Daniel Sedin 1 1 1 3
Henrik Zetterberg 1 2 3
Mats Naslund 1 2 3
Clark Gillies 2 2
Charlie Simmer 2 2
Taylor Hall 1 1 2
John Ogrodnick 1 1 2
Patrik Elias 1 1 2
John Tonelli 2 2
Wayne Cashman 1 1 2
Vic Hadfield 1 1 2
Dave Andreychuk 2 2
Brad Marchand 1 1
Chris Kunitz 1 1
Claude Giroux 1 1
Adam Graves 1 1
Joe Pavelski 1 1
Ray Whitney 1 1
Thomas Vanek 1 1
Gerard Gallant 1 1
Dany Heatley 1 1
Dennis Hull 1 1
Steve Vickers 1 1
Zach Parise 1 1
Brian Bellows 1 1
Artemi Panarin 1 1
Pavol Demitra 1 1
Patrick Marleau 1 1
Rick Nash 1 1
Gilles Tremblay 1 1
Danny Grant 1 1
Rod Brind'Amour 1 1
Chuck Lafley 1 1
Todd Bertuzzi 1 1
Eric Vail 1 1
Scott Hartnell 1 1
Steve Payne 1 1
Al Secord 1 1
Glenn Anderson 1 1
Patrick Sharp 1 1
Esa Tikkanen 1 1
Johnny Gaudreau 1 1
Vincent Damphousse 1 1
Pat Verbeek 1 1
Gary Roberts 1 1

###

Player First Second Third Total
Mike Bossy 5 3 1 9
Jaromir Jagr 7 1 8
Guy Lafleur 6 6
Martin St. Louis 1 4 1 6
Jarome Iginla 3 1 1 5
Brett Hull 3 2 5
Jari Kurri 2 3 5
Teemu Selanne 2 2 1 5
Pavel Bure 1 2 2 5
Marian Hossa 1 4 5
Patrick Kane 3 1 4
Yvan Cournoyer 4 4
Cam Neely 4 4
Gordie Howe 3 3
Ken Hodge 2 1 3
Rod Gilbert 1 1 1 3
Mickey Redmond 1 1 1 3
Vladimir Tarasenko 2 1 3
Rick Middleton 1 2 3
Theo Fleury 1 2 3
Tim Kerr 1 2 3
John McKenzie 1 2 3
Corey Perry 2 2
Alexander Ovechkin 1 1 2
Nikita Kucherov 1 1 2
Joe Mullen 1 1 2
Lanny McDonald 2 2
Alexander Mogilny 2 2
Alexei Kovalev 1 1 2
Daniel Alfredsson 1 1 2
Marian Gaborik 1 1 2
Bill Goldsworthy 2 2
Dino Ciccarelli 2 2
Phil Kessel 2 2
Jakub Voracek 1 1
Håkan Loob 1 1
Dany Heatley 1 1
James Neal 1 1
Todd Bertuzzi 1 1
Dave Taylor 1 1
Blake Wheeler 1 1
Reggie Leach 1 1
René Robert 1 1
Danny Gare 1 1
Milan Hejduk 1 1
Mark Recchi 1 1
Bill Guerin 1 1
Stephane Richer 1 1
Jonathan Cheechoo 1 1
Owen Nolan 1 1
Joe Pavelski 1 1
Rob Brown 1 1
Ziggy Palffy 1 1
Jim Pappin 1 1
Glenn Murray 1 1
Jean Pronovost 1 1
Wilf Paiment 1 1
Terry O'Reilly 1 1
Bob MacMillan 1 1
Jiri Hudler 1 1
Wayne Babych 1 1
Craig Simpson 1 1

###

Player First Second Third Total
Ray Bourque 13 6 2 21
Nicklas Lidstrom 10 2 4 16
Paul Coffey 4 4 2 10
Brad Park 5 2 2 9
Chris Chelios 5 2 2 9
Bobby Orr 8 8
Denis Potvin 5 2 1 8
Al MacInnis 4 3 1 8
Zdeno Chara 3 4 1 8
Larry Robinson 3 3 2 8
Scott Stevens 2 3 3 8
Chris Pronger 1 3 4 8
Brian Leetch 2 3 1 6
Shea Weber 2 2 2 6
Börje Salming 1 5 6
Guy Lapointe 1 3 2 6
Larry Murphy 3 3 6
Serge Savard 1 5 6
Mark Howe 3 2 5
Drew Doughty 2 2 1 5
Rod Langway 2 1 2 5
Rob Blake 1 3 1 5
Doug Wilson 1 2 2 5
Sergei Gonchar 2 3 5
Phil Housley 1 4 5
Erik Karlsson 4 4
Scott Niedermayer 3 1 4
Duncan Keith 2 1 1 4
P.K. Subban 2 1 3
J.C. Tremblay 1 1 1 3
Bill White 3 3
Dan Boyle 2 1 3
Kris Letang 2 1 3
Eric Desjardins 2 1 3
Sergei Zubov 1 2 3
Jim Neilson 1 2 3
Barry Beck 3 3
Tim Horton 2 2
Mike Green 2 2
Victor Hedman 1 1 2
Brent Burns 1 1 2
Dion Phaneuf 1 1 2
Ryan Suter 1 1 2
Alex Pietrangelo 2 2
Pat Stapleton 2 2
Jacques Laperriere 1 1 2
Al Iafrate 1 1 2
Vladimir Konstantinov 1 1 2
Brad McCrimmon 1 1 2
Ted Green 1 1 2
Dallas Smith 2 2
Al Arbour 2 2
Andrei Markov 2 2
Roman Josi 2 2
John Klingberg 2 2
Randy Carlyle 1 1
Sandis Ozolinsh 1 1
Seth Jones 1 1
Francois Beauchemin 1 1
Brian Campbell 1 1
Barry Ashbee 1 1
Bryan McCabe 1 1
Ted Harris 1 1
Derian Hatcher 1 1
Carl Brewer 1 1
Brian Engblom 1 1
Lubomir Visnovsky 1 1
Jim Schoenfeld 1 1
Gary Suter 1 1
Craig Hartsburg 1 1
Keith Magnuson 1 1
Kevin Lowe 1 1
Adrian Aucoin 1 1
Steve Duchesne 1 1
Kevin Hatcher 1 1
Kimmo Timonen 1 1
Wade Redden 1 1
Keith Yandle 1 1
Pierre Pilote 1 1
Ryan Suter 1 1
Mark Giordano 1 1
Carol Vadnais 1 1
Jimmy Watson 1 1
Ryan Suter 1 1
Mike Ramsay 1 1
John Carlson 1 1
Ulf Samuelsson 1 1
Teppo Numminen 1 1

###

Player First Second Third Total
Martin Brodeur 3 4 4 11
Patrick Roy 4 2 2 8
Dominik Hasek 6 1 7
Tony Esposito 3 2 2 7
Ken Dryden 5 1 6
Ed Belfour 2 1 3 6
Eddie Giacomin 1 3 4
Tom Barrasso 1 2 1 4
Pekka Rinne 1 1 2 4
Grant Fuhr 1 1 2 4
Roberto Luongo 2 2 4
Henrik Lundqvist 1 1 1 3
Mike Liut 1 1 1 3
Glenn Resch 2 1 3
Don Edwards 2 1 3
Jacques Plante 1 2 3
Tim Thomas 2 2
Sergei Bobrovsky 2 2
Bernie Parent 2 2
John Vanbiesbrouck 1 1 2
Braden Holtby 1 1 2
Jim Carey 1 1 2
Rogatien Vachon 2 2
Jonathan Quick 1 1 2
Ben Bishop 1 1 2
Marty Turco 1 1 2
Rejean Lemelin 2 2
Andy Moog 2 2
Pelle Lindbergh 1 1
Pete Peeters 1 1
Tuukka Rask 1 1
Ryan Miller 1 1
Glenn Hall 1 1
Lorne Worsley 1 1
Miikka Kiprusoff 1 1
Billy Smith 1 1
Olaf Kolzig 1 1
Evgeni Nabokov 1 1
Carey Price 1 1
Ron Hextall 1 1
Mike Vernon 1 1
Chris Osgood 1 1
Byron Dafoe 1 1
José Théodore 1 1
Daren Puppa 1 1
Roland Melanson 1 1
Roman Turek 1 1
Devan Dubnyk 1 1
Steve Mason 1 1
Kirk McLean 1 1
Bob Froese 1 1
Mario Lessard 1 1
Ilya Bryzgalov 1 1
Semyon Varlamov 1 1
Roman Cechmanek 1 1
Pat Riggin 1 1
Connor Hellebuyck 1 1
Felix Potvin 1 1
Gary Smith 1 1
Murray Bannerman 1 1
Cam Talbot 1 1
Mike Palmateer 1 1
Greg Millen 1 1
Sean Burke 1 1
Andrei Vasilevskiy 1 1
Wayne Stephenson 1 1
Rick Wamsley 1 1
Ron Tugnutt 1 1
J.S. Giguere 1 1
Antti Niemi 1 1
Johnny Bower 1 1
Gerry Cheevers 1 1
Gilles Villemure 1 1
Gilles Gilbert 1 1

[mikey]

Here is a list of players who have finished top-20 in scoring five or more times:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ehzduf1bru7rl ... .xlsx?dl=0

[mikey]

What about defensemen (who can't legitimately win the Art Ross), defensive players (like Bergeron) and goalies...?

[Gaucho]

I'm fine with merely very good players making the Hall.

[mikey]

Boooooooo

[Gaucho]

I just don't think the process should work like an arbitration hearing.

[shafnutz05]

At the end of the day, the whole mystique and presence of the Hall generates interest and revenue in hockey. As such, I can understand not limiting entry to the very top elite. The general public would get bored with one player getting in every year.

[Lelldorin]

What about defensemen (who can't legitimately win the Art Ross), defensive players (like Bergeron) and goalies...?

Thanks for the data =)

Does Bergeron fit in the HoF? Honest question. I could stand behind him being one of the best two-way centers during the last decade. But more or less pure destroyers of offense (Draper?) are not so impressive to me.

I thought about counting Selke trophies for defensive forwards, but thought it was a bit

Goalies should be captured by the All-Star Teams if we should go with silverware or stats. GAA and save % is affected by the team defense. Otherwise you would have to compare goalies to their back-ups.

Defensemen have four All-Star spots each year. If you want to be considered elite you should be able to grab one of those once in a while? Defensive defensemen would be hard to capture stats-wise?

My biggest problem is that I would like Oates, Yzerman and perhaps Francis to be in. (And perhaps Markus Näslund out) Then I would have to go with top placements in the Art Ross, but I would not like players that were good but not elite to enter. For example someone that comes at place 20 during 10 years should not be in without any high places.

So I basically would have liked someone to receive at least ONE All-Star place (or perhaps a Selke) to even be considered for the Hall. The definition of elite should be that you were among the very best at your position.

[Dickie Dunn]

Håkan Loob!