Making a Murderer Thread

Postby **MWB** » Fri Jan 08, 2016 8:15 pm

Troy is right with what he said.

And my priority 1 is locking up killers. Priority 2 is a fair system. Address the killer first and the corrpution second.

Known killers will nearly always get locked up. If evidence needs to be planted, it's because the killer isn't known, simply assumed, or, at best, likely. Pushing fairness to second just means that you're making it more likely that an innocent person is put behind bars.

Postby **King Colby** » Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:17 pm

The non-planted evidence isnt weak, its just that all of it is circumstantial.
Which evidence wasn't weak?

The fact that she was last seen on his property and her vehicle and remains were both found on his property. And he has no real alibi other than "i didn't do it".

Look, i understand the whole thing was sloppy as hell, and i am being harsh with my opinions, some of which are either poorly articulated or are devil's advocate/pot stirring in nature, but i really feel like a lot of people are losing sight of what i said above. Those are some pretty damn big things. And i think the documentary has made a lot of people forget those key points.

After watching the first 2 episodes, i made the decision to research the case before watching the rest and i think it is very easy to see that the documentary was created in such a way as to sway opinions unilaterally. I think a lot of viewers watch the documentary then do the research, but by the time they do the research their minds have already been made up. We as humans have an inherent desire to be right, and i believe the making a murderer debate has brought that out front and center.

Postby **AuthorTony** » Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:30 pm

The fact that she was last seen on his property and her vehicle and remains were both found on his property. And he has no real alibi other than "i didn't do it".

Also playing devil's advocate - If you're capable of believing that the cops planted some evidence, why couldn't they have planted the car/bones? It makes no sense that bone fragments are scattered across the property. As for the car, it still boggles my mind that it was discovered so quickly. Plus, what was with the one cop calling dispatch and asking them to run the plate of the missing car? It seems so odd. And I still can't understand why he wouldn't have crushed the car.

As for an alibi, if you're alone, then that's basically all you're ever going to have. Keep in mind that in the midst of raping, torturing and killing this woman, Avary supposedly had time to answer the phone when his wife called from jail (sounding completely normal) and Dassey returned home for a while (in the middle of raping and help kill someone) and his mom couldn't tell anything was up.

Avary gave the police 8 days to search his property before even being charged. If he knew there was a body and evidence, you'd think he'd have put up at least a modicum of a fight, but he basically welcomed them in with open arms.

Postby **shmenguin** » Sat Jan 09, 2016 6:15 am

Very surprising moment in the show when a sex scandal came out about Kratz and it involved an adult woman. I would have put money on 1 or both of those descriptors being off the table.

Postby **eddy** » Sat Jan 09, 2016 7:55 am

Very surprising moment in the show when a sex scandal came out about Kratz and it involved an adult woman. I would have put money on 1 or both of those descriptors being off the table.

Yeah

Postby **shmenguin** » Sat Jan 09, 2016 7:58 am

Thinking about the bones...I'm having a hard time picturing how she could have been burned at the bonfire. So you burn the body (which everyone around would smell and apparently bonfires don't get hit enough for that) and try to move the remains out to dump them at the quarry right? But you still leave a bunch in the fire. And maybe the fire isn't working enough, so you move her to the barrel. But again, despite dumping at the quarry, you leave fragments in the barrel. There's an explanation where someone who is very drunk basically says, "ah f this. I'm going to bed" but that's about it. Seems much more plausible that someone burnt her at the quarry and moved some bones to the ash pile at his house and some to the barrel. Or the person who moved them wasn't the killer. Could have been the cops of course.

Tldnr; there is no story that would account for a sane person burning her in the bonfire.

Postby **Freddy Rumsen** » Sat Jan 09, 2016 8:07 am

We'll the defense attorney caught the bro in law lying about the size of the bonfire.

Postby **Lemon Berry Lobster** » Sat Jan 09, 2016 10:00 am

What drives me up a wall is Kratz says at the end of Avery's trial is she was killed in the garage and only one man was the murderer. Yet during the Dassey trial they stated they stabbed, raped, and slit her throat. I can not believe for a second that if that was all true, which according to the court is, that those two would be capable of removing every shred of DNA evidence from the trailer. They found her blood in the car but couldn't find one drop else where? They didn't prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the two murder that woman.

Postby **skullman80** » Sat Jan 09, 2016 10:31 am

hey didn't prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the two murder that woman.

This is my biggest take away. How a normal/intelligent person sitting on the jury could actually say with a straight face that they prosecution proved beyond a reasonable doubt that either Avery or Dassey were guilty it just mind boggling to me. It doesn't matter if you think they might have done it. As a juror you have to find that beyond a reasonable doubt that person is guilty, and the evidence that the prosecution put forth certainly did not meet that benchmark.

Postby **dodint** » Sat Jan 09, 2016 10:59 am

Source of the post This is my biggest take away. How a normal/intelligent person sitting on the jury could actually say with a straight face that they prosecution proved beyond a reasonable doubt that either Avery or Dassey were guilty it just mind boggling to me.

I mentioned yesterday that this case was on the local news again. It was because one of the jurors made a public statement that saying they were "comfortable" with the verdict they reached.

Postby **Freddy Rumsen** » Sat Jan 09, 2016 12:03 pm

Go watch 12 Angry Men.

Most folks just want to go home.

Postby **dodint** » Sat Jan 09, 2016 12:05 pm

Excellent film. Waiting for the UHD release myself.

Postby **Troy Loney** » Sat Jan 09, 2016 1:02 pm

hey didn't prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the two murder that woman.
This is my biggest take away. How a normal/intelligent person sitting on the jury could actually say with a straight face that they prosecution proved beyond a reasonable doubt that either Avery or Dassey were guilty it just mind boggling to me. It doesn't matter if you think they might have done it. As a juror you have to find that beyond a reasonable doubt that person is guilty, and the evidence that the prosecution put forth certainly did not meet that benchmark.

The one dude from the jury said there were two or three individuals in the jury that were convinced he was guilty and would refused to budge during deliberation.

Postby **Freddy Rumsen** » Sun Jan 10, 2016 8:01 pm

Mark Geragos and Dr. Drew talk at length about MaM on Reasonable Doubt with Adam Carolla. Must listen.

https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/rea ... ?mt=2&ls=1

Postby **dodint** » Sun Jan 10, 2016 8:08 pm

Funny that MaM is the spiritual successor to Serial, while Serial2 blew it with their follow up subject.

Postby **Freddy Rumsen** » Mon Jan 11, 2016 3:03 pm

https://twitter.com/GovWalker/status/686597132388818944

Postby **dodint** » Mon Jan 11, 2016 3:07 pm

I don't have a lot of respect for Walker or Wisconsin courts right now, sooooo, yeah.

Postby **count2infinity** » Mon Jan 11, 2016 3:19 pm

So I'm halfway through and haven't read any of this thread yet for spoilers and whatnot...

Postby **AuthorTony** » Mon Jan 11, 2016 3:20 pm

The appeals court opinion was only in regards to whether the searches were legal and whether it was wrong to allow the juror to be dismissed. It really doesn't say anything about whether Avery is guilty or not. It's a shame Walker isn't smart enough to know how the appeals process works.

Postby **Troy Loney** » Mon Jan 11, 2016 3:29 pm

How about that scumbag Kratz gloating about his $350,000 "mansion" during that harassment story. I glossed over the first time I heard it...but in hindsight...that's just such a ridiculous thing to brag about. That's not like that size of a house that you can point to and be like 'i'm rich *****".

Postby **count2infinity** » Mon Jan 11, 2016 3:35 pm

When Kratz said in a taped interview that if they were really out to get him, they'd just kill Avery rather than go through all this trouble of framing him... my jaw dropped. Wtf.

Postby **dodint** » Mon Jan 11, 2016 4:13 pm

How about that scumbag Kratz gloating about his $350,000 "mansion" during that harassment story. I glossed over the first time I heard it...but in hindsight...that's just such a ridiculous thing to brag about. That's not like that size of a house that you can point to and be like 'i'm rich *****".

You've never been to Wisconsin.

Postby **shmenguin** » Mon Jan 11, 2016 4:35 pm

When Kratz said in a taped interview that if they were really out to get him, they'd just kill Avery rather than go through all this trouble of framing him... my jaw dropped. Wtf.

Not Kratz. That was one of the cops.

Postby **count2infinity** » Mon Jan 11, 2016 4:38 pm

Oh, that's right... That was Petersen.

Postby **shmenguin** » Mon Jan 11, 2016 4:41 pm

How about that scumbag Kratz gloating about his $350,000 "mansion" during that harassment story. I glossed over the first time I heard it...but in hindsight...that's just such a ridiculous thing to brag about. That's not like that size of a house that you can point to and be like 'i'm rich *****".

Honestly my first thought after hearing that was that he was under paid. I infer he's making between 100 and 200k. Probably closer to 100 if I had to guess based on context and phrasing and the cost of his house. I know he's a piece of human filth and everything, but that dude worked his tubby ass off and masterfully won 2 high profile cases that he shouldn't have. And he sold his soul in the process. For that amount of skill and effort, I'd expect him to be taking home more cash.