Game of Thrones Discussion

Postby **meecrofilm** » Mon May 13, 2019 10:04 am

Except, you know, when he leaves her not a few episodes ago to go up north to what he presumes to be his death. But aside from that, yeah, he was never gonna abandon her and their unborn child... :/
He went to fight in a war to try to save the world (which would presumably include his sister/love and unborn child who were safe far away. Then, when the lives of his sister/lover and unborn child are in very real danger, he leaves to protect them. :/

Except that's not how that scene played out between them (when he leaves).

Postby **obhave** » Mon May 13, 2019 10:04 am

Right, Jon has to go reestablish the Night's Watch.
What are they watching for? There's no Night King and the Wall is materially destroyed.
And peace has also been established with the Wildlings.

Are we assuming D&D write an ending that makes sense? I've given up all hope.

Postby **AuthorTony** » Mon May 13, 2019 10:05 am

Except that's not how that scene played out between them (when he leaves).

He was pissed at her for lying and putting the war against the dead at risk. Once that threat was over, I don't see it as a giant betrayal of character for him to realize he still has feelings for the only woman he's ever truly loved.

Postby **Stoosh** » Mon May 13, 2019 10:06 am

I'm still not sure what I think of this episode. I really liked parts of it and really disliked parts of it. I'll have to rewatch it to see how much my mind changes on some of these, and I also want to put this episode in the context of the entire season. Still, I just can't shake the feeling that this all would have been much better if they had done 8-10 episodes each over Seasons 7 and 8.

Some of the things that stuck with me...

1. I really liked the scene right after the bells rang, with Dany & Drogon on the tower and the camera just lingering on Dany's face as she realized her entire journey was fulfilled in that moment, yet also feeling that she had almost nothing. She no longer had anyone in her circle that should could trust, except maybe Grey Worm. I'm not even sure how much she really wanted the throne in that moment. Ultimately, I think she decides to burn Kings Landing and salvage her kingdom from what remains.

2. I didn't care for what they did with Jamie because I thought his potential redemption was one of the more compelling stories in the show and especially the books. That said, I saw someone argue on Twitter that Jamie's arc ultimately became a metaphor for addiction, and sometimes addicts ultimately go right back to their addiction no matter how much progress they make along the way. I think that makes some sense. It wasn't the ending I hoped he'd get, though maybe the "Jamie kills Cersei and then dies in the process" was always too predictable. I think this was all something that would have definitely been served better by more episodes.

3. I did like what they did with Tyrion. At the end of the day, Dany's suspicions that he just couldn't bring himself to hurt his family proved true, though I think there's something natural about that. Tyrion always seemed to want to save as many people as he could, and in the end that even included the sister that was nothing but horrible to him his entire life. I think it was easier for him to believe in Dany prior to her arrival in Westeros because most of those she destroyed in her rise to power were oppressive or had questionable motives. As the fight got closer to home, he started to see things in Dany that shook his faith in her - namely, him watching her decimate the Lannister forces when she attacked the loot train and later, her burning the Tarlys and later Varys.

4. Loved the scene with Tyrion and Jamie.

5. The cinematography and music in this was incredible. Just incredible. As much as the story suffered in parts of this episode, it was one of the most visually stunning episodes of the entire series.

6. Satisfying: Qyburn's death.

7. Glad Euron and his over-the-top BS are gone. In my head, I had Drogon turning him into a snack but whatever. Adios.

Postby **Troy Loney** » Mon May 13, 2019 10:08 am

What do you mean?

They explained clearly why she had to do that, her only basis of power moving forward is fear. She's lost two dragons and most of her army. Her advisor was already scheming to lift Jon to the throne. I think she made an overture to Jon to unite in marriage I think, where he rebuffed by saying essentially that she is his queen, but not more. Sansa is already plotting against her as well, so she would never have the support of the north.
Fear from whom? The dead people she just murdered? As others have already said, plenty of ways to establish fear with a dragon at your disposal apart from committing large-scale genocide. The constant clamoring for the bell to be rung from the townspeople already confirms they were scared as **** and wanted it to be over, since they've all just seen a dragon in action. The fear was already instilled.

It's lazy writing. But don't take it from me. The showrunners provided a brilliant explanation as to why she decides to do that:

“It’s in that moment,” Weiss says, “on the walls of King’s Landing, when she’s looking at that symbol of everything that was taken from her, that she decides to make this personal.”
Yep. Nothing more personal than killing hundreds of thousands of innocents that you don't know and that Cersei doesn't even care about.

Almost on par with their "Dany kind of forgot about the Iron Fleet" explanation for last episodes ambush (which has become a pretty entertaining meme). Brilliant work with motivations, gents.

She needs to instill fear on her future subjects so that they don't question here rule. Also, I think she views KL as loyal to Cersei, and that they would be insubordinate, so no reason to not just torch those people and run her military state.

But yeah, I think it's stupid that the driving plot for the last two episodes has been 100% focused on whether or not Dany would torch KL, then we has to spend 40 minutes watching her torch King's Landing while Cersei and Jamie died alone in an attempt at a touching, romantic departure. I mean really, Cersei, who orchestrated the murder of thousands of people gets to die in a sympathetic way?

Postby **meecrofilm** » Mon May 13, 2019 10:19 am

She needs to instill fear on her future subjects so that they don't question here rule.

I assumed they were building towards her flying Drogon straight at the red keep and torching that entire building, which would've done the job, IMO, and sure, there would've been collateral damage, but also would've been more on par with what they set up, i.e. more of a "whoa" moment. What happened felt so far removed from the reality that it lacked any real punch.

Also, I think she views KL as loyal to Cersei, and that they would be insubordinate, so no reason to not just torch those people and run her military state.

I mean, if that was the explanation Benioff and Weiss gave, sure, but it wasn't. It should've been, but, it wasn't.

Postby **Dickie Dunn** » Mon May 13, 2019 10:30 am

After sleeping on it, I liked the episode more than I did last night but it still was not good. The change in character and weapon strength from week to week is annoying and extremely poor storytelling, but probably the worst thing I can say about this episode is that I thought it was boring. It wasn't exciting or interesting and struggled to hold my attention, right down to Cleganebowl being inhibited by quick cuts between their fight and whatever the hell Arya was doing (probably because it was impossible to train Hafþór to be a convincing sword fighter).

- The complete destruction of Jaime's character arc and the final resolution for he and Cersei is just awful.
- Arya just really survives everything doesn't she?
- What the hell is Jon's purpose for existing? All he's done this season is look dumb, yell at a dragon, and not **** his aunt. Even his true parentage exists only for the purpose of antagonizing Dany.
- Where the **** is winter at?
- If Bronn shows up next episode as some fancy lad with a title and importance I'm going to ****.
- How can you have the complete and utter destruction of King's Landing and then come to some kind of reasonable and satisfying conclusion with about 60 minutes of storytelling left? The fallout from this could be an entire season if they felt like it.
- It's been this way since last season, but the show really no longer exists beyond the interactions of the main characters. Every conversation and every scene solely exists to set up the next event, which is why we're all of two episodes since the Battle of Winterfell and it might as well had not even happened. No major fallout or impact on anyone or anything south of Winterfell.
- Tyrion really is the worst advisor. Everything he's told her to do over the past two seasons has effectively neutered her forces. It took her 10 minutes to take King's Landing with one dragon; cruise on in there with 3 and ask for forgiveness later. Take King's Landing in the morning and be back for the Battle of Winterfell before the day is over.

I think the most frustrating thing for me at this point is thinking about these two seasons could have been with more time and some better storytelling, which is why GRRM has written one book in 14 years. There's just too much **** going on.

Postby **DigitalGypsy66** » Mon May 13, 2019 10:35 am

Brian Hiatt, a writer from Rolling Stone that interviewed Maisie Williams and Sophie Turner (as well as Peter Dinklage a few years ago) said that D & D's favorite scene of Sansa (from the entire series) comes during her final scene (in the finale). So big things coming for Sansa?

Postby **DigitalGypsy66** » Mon May 13, 2019 10:36 am

Here's the 35+ minute behind the scenes featurette from last night's episode:

Postby **obhave** » Mon May 13, 2019 10:38 am

Brian Hiatt, a writer from Rolling Stone that interviewed Maisie Williams and Sophie Turner (as well as Peter Dinklage a few years ago) said that D & D's favorite scene of Sansa (from the entire series) comes during her final scene (in the finale). So big things coming for Sansa?

This makes me fearful.

Postby **nocera** » Mon May 13, 2019 10:42 am

I can't imagine a finale that will please the majority of the fans. It is what it is.

Postby **shmenguin** » Mon May 13, 2019 10:46 am

But that wasn’t great for me dog.
Most unsurprising thing ever posted. FIND ANOTHER **** SHOW
As per usual, you’ll figure it out after the adrenaline wears off.

Postby **blackjack68** » Mon May 13, 2019 11:01 am

I'm not as mad about the Jamie and Cersei ending, sure I would've liked something else (like Jamie killing her), but he said it last episode, he's a hateful person. He may have tried to be a better person, but in the end, just like in the first episodes of the series, he was evil and all he cared about was Cersei. He pushed a kid out of a tower for Cersei. It's like he wanted to die and he wanted to die with her.

Euron was a ****** until the end. Stayed true to character.

Varys, the guy who had seen all this before, was the wisest one and got fried for it.

Zombie-like Tyrion and Jon are my biggest points of contention. Tyrion just strolls around a burning city and emerges unscathed and Jon was slow motion dopey. Will Tyrion kill Dany to correct his mistake, will Bronn kill him.

I thought they were setting Arya up to be a leader by getting those women to safety, but nope.

So, in the end, it's looking more and more like Sansa will rule the seven kingdoms from Winterfell since there's not a lot of King's Landing left.

Not sure I care so much anymore, but we've made it this far, so I'm interested to see how it ends.

GRRM told the producers/writers how the story ends, so the ending will be the ending in the books (yeah, right...the books are coming) either way.

Postby **shmenguin** » Mon May 13, 2019 11:01 am

Jaime being mortally wounded...Arya in the vicinity...They like fan service. Cersei making peace with her brother only to see him rip his face off and then getting shanked by a Stark would have been somethin’. But the ceiling killing her was super great.

Postby **blackjack68** » Mon May 13, 2019 11:02 am

Honestly, might have been my least favorite episode of the series. Wasn’t even really entertaining or interesting. Also, could not have predicted Jon Snow being this incredibly worthless.
Shmenguin, did you sign in under Dickie Dunn’s name?
Worst thing anyone has ever said to me. I hope you’re forced to read an encyclopedia of Ned posts.

Postby **Jim** » Mon May 13, 2019 11:08 am

As people are still complaining about the dragon frontal assault last week... adding in confusion that she figured it out this week... (so it's stupid when she doesn't know what she is doing, and stupid when she does, ok)

Outside of using words very well (talking people into things), in all of the fights and battles, has Daenerys ever done anything that was even remotely tactically sound? Has she actually planned and executed a solid battle strategy? Other than using the pure power of the Mongols (Dothraki) or the skill of the Samurai (Unsullied) has she ever shown that she had one ounce of strategic ability?

No.

So why is it surprising that she screwed the pooch when alone in the sky with her two dragons and seeing the enemy fleet? Nobody there to adviser her, 100% her own non-tactically-adept mind decisions. And then why is it surprising that when that first time went completely FUBAR, she learned what not to do and did something else the second time? (That doesn't mean that she because a planner, it just means that if I bang my head the first time, I duck the second.)

Postby **obhave** » Mon May 13, 2019 11:11 am

The issue with saying we actually have the ending from GRRM, is that he is not that type of writer. The reason his books have gotten so bloated is he is not a "plot" guy, he let's his story be character driven and the story and events change as he writes. So honestly, he could have thought that was his ending, and as he writes figure out that doesn't work.

D&D don't have that same commitment to characters, and just want to reach an end in some way from what GRRM left.

Edit: he has himself blamed this for Meeren (or.however you spell it) plot in the book.

Postby **Dickie Dunn** » Mon May 13, 2019 11:13 am

Brian Hiatt, a writer from Rolling Stone that interviewed Maisie Williams and Sophie Turner (as well as Peter Dinklage a few years ago) said that D & D's favorite scene of Sansa (from the entire series) comes during her final scene (in the finale). So big things coming for Sansa?

At this point it wouldn't surprise me if she got raped again.

Postby **blackjack68** » Mon May 13, 2019 11:20 am

FUN FACT: Go back and watch Rhaegal get shot in the neck again. As he starts to fall to the water, have your volume up.

It is 100% someone drinking the remnants of a Coke through a McDonald's straw.

Seriously. Listen to it.

Postby **Troy Loney** » Mon May 13, 2019 11:22 am

The issue with saying we actually have the ending from GRRM, is that he is not that type of writer. The reason his books have gotten so bloated is he is not a "plot" guy, he let's his story be character driven and the story and events change as he writes. So honestly, he could have thought that was his ending, and as he writes figure out that doesn't work.

D&D don't have that same commitment to characters, and just want to reach an end in some way from what GRRM left.

Edit: he has himself blamed this for Meeren (or.however you spell it) plot in the book.

The way I 've been explaining this all to myself, is that D&D used season 6 to slash all the subplots and converge everything into one linear plot line. And what we are all learning, is that this story, when constrained to a linear plot, kind of sucks. It was cool for like 10 minutes when all the characters were pulled together and interacting with one another. But that got old pretty fast.

Postby **Dickie Dunn** » Mon May 13, 2019 11:28 am

FUN FACT: Go back and watch Rhaegal get shot in the neck again. As he starts to fall to the water, have your volume up.

It is 100% someone drinking the remnants of a Coke through a McDonald's straw.

Seriously. Listen to it.

Not convinced that it was Coke. My money is on Fruitopia.

Postby **eddy** » Mon May 13, 2019 11:37 am

Agree to disagree then. She's been ruthless and vengeful in previous seasons, but only with enemies and those who have directly opposed her. In all of her previous sacks of cities, she showed great care in making sure as few innocents as possible were harmed. The big question the characters in the show always raised was "Can she take take King's Landing without innocent lives being lost en masse?" However, that situation didn't even arise. The city had already surrendered so she didn't even end up having to make that big choice between the two. But then she just decides to murder everyone anyway..... just.... because?

If we're supposed to buy that her character is going to do a complete 180 from who she was her entire life because her boyfriend is a wet blanket who effs her over, yeah, that to me is not earned. But a lot in this show has not been in quite some time.
What do you mean?

They explained clearly why she had to do that, her only basis of power moving forward is fear. She's lost two dragons and most of her army. Her advisor was already scheming to lift Jon to the throne. I think she made an overture to Jon to unite in marriage I think, where he rebuffed by saying essentially that she is his queen, but not more. Sansa is already plotting against her as well, so she would never have the support of the north.

I think the criticism is that this moved all too fast, last season Jon and Dany were lovers, and it was never really explained why they are no longer. I think the implication is that it's because they are related, but stoic Jon never talks and were just supposed to understand what's going on in his head through Tyrion and Varys.

I don't know if this had anything to do with it or not either, but it was always said the people would turn on Cersei and help the fight. That never happened (didn't really have a chance too) and I think that led to Dany feeling a little betrayed by the people as well as everything else that has been happening from the beginning.

Postby **blackjack68** » Mon May 13, 2019 11:40 am

FUN FACT: Go back and watch Rhaegal get shot in the neck again. As he starts to fall to the water, have your volume up.

It is 100% someone drinking the remnants of a Coke through a McDonald's straw.

Seriously. Listen to it.
Not convinced that it was Coke. My money is on Fruitopia.

Maybe Giant's Milk

Postby **eddy** » Mon May 13, 2019 11:47 am

The only reason I can think of for having Bronn show up again is to rescue Tyrion from Dany . That's all I got.

Each week I love that I really haven't been able to figure out what was going to happen next (even if the result wasn't exactly what I wanted) and that's true for next week as well. It's easy to look at it and say Jon will kill Dany, Sansa will rule and Jon heads back to the North, but I've been surprised (for better or worse) each week. There can't be that many possibilities of what's about to happen? Like someone said above, with the compressed season, it's now all about the main characters and everyone/thing else gets lumped in with those characters in the background. What is there, like 300 people left in Westeros now?

Postby **shafnutz05** » Mon May 13, 2019 12:21 pm

FUN FACT: Go back and watch Rhaegal get shot in the neck again. As he starts to fall to the water, have your volume up.

It is 100% someone drinking the remnants of a Coke through a McDonald's straw.

Seriously. Listen to it.

hahahahah, this is great. And true.