Game of Thrones Discussion

Postby **meecrofilm** » Mon May 13, 2019 9:08 am

Eh. I don't think Dany's heel turn was 100% earned, which substantially lessened the impact of the subsequent scenes. It was great spectacle, but it felt hollow. I'm fine if that's their endgame, but like others have said, it was too rushed.

Postby **shmenguin** » Mon May 13, 2019 9:11 am

I now regret watching/reading any of this story.

Postby **AuthorTony** » Mon May 13, 2019 9:16 am

I don't see how Jamie's arc didn't make sense. He had a love/hate with his sister/lover that was never going to evaporate. And as much as he knew she was evil, he wasn't going to sit by and watch her die, especially when she's carrying his child. Jamie was a devoted brother both to Tyrion and Cersei, risking his life/position/etc for them over and over again. He changed and became a better, kinder person, but if anything that cemented that he'd still try to save his sister/lover. That was a 40+ year love affair.

That said, they definitely deserved a better death.

Postby **meow** » Mon May 13, 2019 9:17 am

Boy howdy. That’s a spicy meatball, shmengy

Postby **AuthorTony** » Mon May 13, 2019 9:22 am

Eh. I don't think Dany's heel turn was 100% earned, which substantially lessened the impact of the subsequent scenes. It was great spectacle, but it felt hollow. I'm fine if that's their endgame, but like others have said, it was too rushed.

I think it was earned and has been foreshadowed for a while now, but yes, it was rushed. They should have started dropping more hints last season. I get that they wanted the shock that came with the final turn, but the result of that is a large percentage of the audience feeling cheated.

Postby **skullman80** » Mon May 13, 2019 9:23 am

Having invested as much time and effort into this show I can see what Shmengy is saying with how hollow this ending is trending to be, but the highs were really high. I'm willing to at least see how they close it out next week. I'm just not expecting much.

Postby **nocera** » Mon May 13, 2019 9:25 am

Just remember that no matter how down you are on this season (and I'm not down on it all, which has been well established here), it's NOTHING compared to the complete and total disappointment of LOST.

Postby **meecrofilm** » Mon May 13, 2019 9:26 am

Even Clegane bowl felt hollow.

It felt weird because it was completely over-the-top and almost cartoonish, which might've been fine on its own, but when juxtaposed with the very real terror Arya was experiencing on the ground, it felt very out of place.

Euron is a gibbering moron, right to the end.

I've never read the books, but I have to assume there was more to the character than what the show did. What a crazy oversight to not have him react to the news that Tyrion knows about Cersei's pregnancy in the previous episode. I had just assumed they were gonna wait an episode to have it pay off, but nope. Pretty much encapsulates how maddeningly inconsistent the writing has been over the past 10+ episodes.

The former cleverest man in Westeros, Tyrion, is now the most dim. Sad.

He's been a moron for a while. Like many other characters, he's been reduced to a means to an end for the showrunners to get their desired results.

Nikolaj Coster-Waldau pretty much calls out the trash, rushed writing in a recent interview: https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/20 ... -interview

“We’re used to having a whole season to get to a point. Now suddenly, a lot of things happen very quickly.” The actor says he has to fill in a lot of the details for himself: "Trying to connect the dots between the scenes was a little complicated because you invest so much time, so many years in these characters..."

Postby **slappybrown** » Mon May 13, 2019 9:32 am

Dany

I can buy into the mad Queen thing and her shading over to the dark. She feels alone in Westeros; the true heir to the throne is a Northerner who won't be the Consort to her Queen because of their blood relation; and people are actively plotting against her. That's the counter-weight to the first 7 seasons of "breaker of chains", a conqueror mindful of collateral damage.

You want to rule through fear instead of love -- I get it. Set Cersei and Jaime and Tyrion and whoever else alight in the middle of KL. Hell, even burn a couple of blocks and take down some civilians if you want to show the world you will engage in wanton killing to send a message. But to torch the entire city and kill (let's say 50% of the populatio using Tyrion's one million estimate) half a million people at random? Nah man, Nah.

The Dragons

The less said the better. I am generally sympathetic to how hard it is to incorporate these things into the show, but last week was (so I thought) a clear message that she can't just rain hellfire down because she's the only one with aerial capability. Haha, never mind! An entire fleet, tens of scorpions along the city wall, no problem.

Euron, The Iron Fleet, and the Golden Company

Every second he spent on screen, every reference to the Fleet and Golden Company was entirely a waste of time. jfc

Tyrion and Jaime

Start a new life in Pentos in this rowboat? WHAT THE F ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?????????!/1!!?!?1?1!?!?!?1!?! Perhaps the single worst moment in the history of the show.

I can't even do the rest. What a bummer.

Postby **Troy Loney** » Mon May 13, 2019 9:35 am

That was largely an incoherent mess imo.
Agree on what others have stated. Jaime's character development was one of my favorite in the entire series, and they completely threw it out the window (pun intended). I hope Grey Worm/Dany both meet horrible deaths next episode.

I don't understand this, Dany freaking saved Westeros while Cersei plotted to ride out the storm, then antagonized Dany by executing Missandei in the most obnoxious of ways. So she burned Kings Landing and made Jon sad, watching that scene, it was essentially a repeat of what the Lannister army did after sacking KL to remove the Targaryns. Either way, the Starks are the heroes and they will take Dany out, Jon will go be leader of the NIght's Watch and Sansa will run Westeros with Robyn Arryn or some ****.

Postby **meecrofilm** » Mon May 13, 2019 9:37 am

Eh. I don't think Dany's heel turn was 100% earned, which substantially lessened the impact of the subsequent scenes. It was great spectacle, but it felt hollow. I'm fine if that's their endgame, but like others have said, it was too rushed.
I think it was earned and has been foreshadowed for a while now, but yes, it was rushed. They should have started dropping more hints last season. I get that they wanted the shock that came with the final turn, but the result of that is a large percentage of the audience feeling cheated.

Agree to disagree then. She's been ruthless and vengeful in previous seasons, but only with enemies and those who have directly opposed her. In all of her previous sacks of cities, she showed great care in making sure as few innocents as possible were harmed. The big question the characters in the show always raised was "Can she take take King's Landing without innocent lives being lost en masse?" However, that situation didn't even arise. The city had already surrendered so she didn't even end up having to make that big choice between the two. But then she just decides to murder everyone anyway..... just.... because?

If we're supposed to buy that her character is going to do a complete 180 from who she was her entire life because her boyfriend is a wet blanket who effs her over, yeah, that to me is not earned. But a lot in this show has not been in quite some time.

Postby **meecrofilm** » Mon May 13, 2019 9:41 am

I don't see how Jamie's arc didn't make sense. He had a love/hate with his sister/lover that was never going to evaporate. And as much as he knew she was evil, he wasn't going to sit by and watch her die, especially when she's carrying his child.

Except, you know, when he leaves her not a few episodes ago to go up north to what he presumes to be his death. But aside from that, yeah, he was never gonna abandon her and their unborn child... :/

Postby **Troy Loney** » Mon May 13, 2019 9:44 am

Agree to disagree then. She's been ruthless and vengeful in previous seasons, but only with enemies and those who have directly opposed her. In all of her previous sacks of cities, she showed great care in making sure as few innocents as possible were harmed. The big question the characters in the show always raised was "Can she take take King's Landing without innocent lives being lost en masse?" However, that situation didn't even arise. The city had already surrendered so she didn't even end up having to make that big choice between the two. But then she just decides to murder everyone anyway..... just.... because?

If we're supposed to buy that her character is going to do a complete 180 from who she was her entire life because her boyfriend is a wet blanket who effs her over, yeah, that to me is not earned. But a lot in this show has not been in quite some time.

What do you mean?

They explained clearly why she had to do that, her only basis of power moving forward is fear. She's lost two dragons and most of her army. Her advisor was already scheming to lift Jon to the throne. I think she made an overture to Jon to unite in marriage I think, where he rebuffed by saying essentially that she is his queen, but not more. Sansa is already plotting against her as well, so she would never have the support of the north.

I think the criticism is that this moved all too fast, last season Jon and Dany were lovers, and it was never really explained why they are no longer. I think the implication is that it's because they are related, but stoic Jon never talks and were just supposed to understand what's going on in his head through Tyrion and Varys.

Postby **nocera** » Mon May 13, 2019 9:44 am

I think it's pretty clear that the show should've went 9 seasons, with 10 episodes per season. I'm assuming the reason why they went with 7 episodes in S7 and 6 in S8 is budget. I believe most of the issues fans are having would have been resolved if they simply had more time to tell their story. It's definitely rushed but I haven't had any real issues with where they're going. Just how they're getting there.

Postby **obhave** » Mon May 13, 2019 9:45 am

That was largely an incoherent mess imo.
Agree on what others have stated. Jaime's character development was one of my favorite in the entire series, and they completely threw it out the window (pun intended). I hope Grey Worm/Dany both meet horrible deaths next episode.

And this, kids, is why you don't be trashy and name your kids after Game of Thrones characters. All those dumb parents that named their daughters Daenerys or Khaleesi, don't you feel smart now?

Based on my Tumblr feed: "this madness came from nowhere" "why take a just ruler who always fought for the people become this" "Dany has always been smart and doesn't derserve what they are doing to her"

Postby **meecrofilm** » Mon May 13, 2019 9:45 am

Dany

You want to rule through fear instead of love -- I get it. Set Cersei and Jaime and Tyrion and whoever else alight in the middle of KL. Hell, even burn a couple of blocks and take down some civilians if you want to show the world you will engage in wanton killing to send a message. But to torch the entire city and kill (let's say 50% of the populatio using Tyrion's one million estimate) half a million people at random? Nah man, Nah.

Bingo.

The Dragons

The less said the better. I am generally sympathetic to how hard it is to incorporate these things into the show, but last week was (so I thought) a clear message that she can't just rain hellfire down because she's the only one with aerial capability. Haha, never mind! An entire fleet, tens of scorpions along the city wall, no problem.

You can't fly around the ships and burn them from the back the previous episode, but you can this episode! Why? #reasons.

I'm beating a dead dragon with this, but the "plot" of the show used to be the fallout of characters doing and saying what made sense for them to do. The action would then flow as a result of that. Unfortunately, these past two seasons, this has been reversed, with the characters doing/saying whatever it takes for the showrunners to get from Point A to Point B and so on.

Postby **slappybrown** » Mon May 13, 2019 9:47 am

think the implication is that it's because they are related, but stoic Jon never talks and were just supposed to understand what's going on in his head through Tyrion and Varys.

Yes, they used the Tyrion Varys convo from last week or the week before to hammer home the point he's a Northerner and they dont do incest like the Targarayens or Lannisters do down south.

Postby **meecrofilm** » Mon May 13, 2019 9:47 am

I think it's pretty clear that the show should've went 9 seasons, with 10 episodes per season. I'm assuming the reason why they went with 7 episodes in S7 and 6 in S8 is budget. I believe most of the issues fans are having would have been resolved if they simply had more time to tell their story. It's definitely rushed but I haven't had any real issues with where they're going. Just how they're getting there.

No. HBO wanted more show, but Benioff and Weiss specifically wanted A) only two more seasons, and B) those seasons to be shorter. Clearly, they underestimated their own abilities to wrap up the story coherently.

Postby **shmenguin** » Mon May 13, 2019 9:48 am

That was largely an incoherent mess imo.
Agree on what others have stated. Jaime's character development was one of my favorite in the entire series, and they completely threw it out the window (pun intended). I hope Grey Worm/Dany both meet horrible deaths next episode.

I don't understand this, Dany freaking saved Westeros while Cersei plotted to ride out the storm, then antagonized Dany by executing Missandei in the most obnoxious of ways. So she burned Kings Landing and made Jon sad, watching that scene, it was essentially a repeat of what the Lannister army did after sacking KL to remove the Targaryns. Either way, the Starks are the heroes and they will take Dany out, Jon will go be leader of the NIght's Watch and Sansa will run Westeros with Robyn Arryn or some ****.

There’s no more nights watch.

Thinking Jon dies while trying to stop Dany. Sansa rules north. Tyrion is left to unilaterally decide how the rest of the kingdom operates because of course he has that authority. And beyond that...who cares. Based on the pace of the last 2 seasons, there’s like 5 minutes of show left.

Postby **Troy Loney** » Mon May 13, 2019 9:52 am

Right, Jon has to go reestablish the Night's Watch.

Postby **slappybrown** » Mon May 13, 2019 9:54 am

Right, Jon has to go reestablish the Night's Watch.

What are they watching for? There's no Night King and the Wall is materially destroyed.

Postby **meecrofilm** » Mon May 13, 2019 9:58 am

What do you mean?

They explained clearly why she had to do that, her only basis of power moving forward is fear. She's lost two dragons and most of her army. Her advisor was already scheming to lift Jon to the throne. I think she made an overture to Jon to unite in marriage I think, where he rebuffed by saying essentially that she is his queen, but not more. Sansa is already plotting against her as well, so she would never have the support of the north.

Fear from whom? The dead people she just murdered? As others have already said, plenty of ways to establish fear with a dragon at your disposal apart from committing large-scale genocide. The constant clamoring for the bell to be rung from the townspeople already confirms they were scared as **** and wanted it to be over, since they've all just seen a dragon in action. The fear was already instilled.

It's lazy writing. But don't take it from me. The showrunners provided a brilliant explanation as to why she decides to do that:

“It’s in that moment,” Weiss says, “on the walls of King’s Landing, when she’s looking at that symbol of everything that was taken from her, that she decides to make this personal.”

Yep. Nothing more personal than killing hundreds of thousands of innocents that you don't know and that Cersei doesn't even care about.

Almost on par with their "Dany kind of forgot about the Iron Fleet" explanation for last episodes ambush (which has become a pretty entertaining meme). Brilliant work with motivations, gents.

Postby **Troy Loney** » Mon May 13, 2019 10:00 am

Right, Jon has to go reestablish the Night's Watch.
What are they watching for? There's no Night King and the Wall is materially destroyed.

I don't know man, wildlings? For when the zombies come back?

Postby **meecrofilm** » Mon May 13, 2019 10:00 am

Right, Jon has to go reestablish the Night's Watch.
What are they watching for? There's no Night King and the Wall is materially destroyed.

And peace has also been established with the Wildlings.

Postby **AuthorTony** » Mon May 13, 2019 10:01 am

Except, you know, when he leaves her not a few episodes ago to go up north to what he presumes to be his death. But aside from that, yeah, he was never gonna abandon her and their unborn child... :/

He went to fight in a war to try to save the world (which would presumably include his sister/love and unborn child who were safe far away. Then, when the lives of his sister/lover and unborn child are in very real danger, he leaves to protect them. :/