Game of Thrones Discussion

[Willie Kool]

Less compression/artifact than what you get on Cable I think is the big difference.

Yep. In such a dark scene, this is critical. Wagner is right, the lighting here was perfect. The compression is 100% to blame. Looked great on HBOGo, much more detail and clarity. I'm sure it will look incredible in 4K. Too bad HBOGo doesn't offer a 4K plan.

[Willie Kool]

Ima have to re-watch this on HBO Go this weekend.

The difference in detail was huge for me. The underlighting of the clouds as the dragons light up the wights is literally awesome.

[Stoosh]

also telling that the snark sharks of the week are the show's white knights. you guys really can't handle people who don't ingest TV the way you do. there's a simple truth here that should squash all the name calling. you don't care about storytelling. others do. how that makes anyone go into insult mode is baffling...unless you have some other underlying vulnerability you're protecting. do you think people who want an actual story are trying to act superior in some way? is your fandom so fragile that it can be ruined by dissenting opinions? why are you so upset, Dickie? who hurt you?

In the interests of trying to have a discussion, do I think some of the storytelling aspects of the show have changed since the first four or five seasons? Yes. Do I think there are reasons for that? Absolutely. I think this does a pretty good job of elaborating on the unique task of "storytelling" in regards to this show and how it had to evolve since Seasons Four and Five:

https://www.businessinsider.com/game-of ... ion-2019-4

In short, Benioff, Weiss, and their team of writers have had to write much more of the last third of this show than they ever really expected. Direct parallels to printed source material ran out at the end of Season Five. While they got some direction from GRRM on where he wanted some things to go in the books from there, it doesn't sound like there was a ton of help there in the details he provided and as the article points out, even characters and events in the books that overlapped into the show had different plans.

If you consider that everything we've seen since Season Six started was destined to play out over 1500-2000 pages of book content, it's an incredible amount of material to try to adapt directly to a TV show, one that had at most about 30 hours left to play with on screen. They needed to figure out what their end game was. They had main characters all over the place, each with their own situations that now needed to be resolved in a manner that best balanced time and story. If they take too much time to resolve those, you risk rushing too much of the endgame story and/or fans start whining about the resolution slogging along (see Dorne). If they do it too quickly, we get fans complaining about characters getting from Point A to Point B with seemingly-unnatural speed is breaking the immersion for them. And if we have to kill someone off - particularly someone who deserved it - it better be in a satisfying manner, lest we have to worry about it not meshing with someone's head canon and then you get some writer filling his or her diaper online about it (see the complaints that followed this most recent episode about the writers making Arya a "Mary Sue" as proof).

If I sound like I'm making excuses for the writers, sorry...it's not my intent. I'm just trying to imagine what it's like to try to write the ending of this show, and I can't imagine trying to tackle all of this and find this perfect balance of time & story content that nearly everyone will find fulfilling.

I get the some of the complaints about it. I just think given the circumstances that exist with this particular story - one whose source material still doesn't have anything close to an ending - as being told in this particular show, they've done a pretty good job with the volume of story they had to write into the time they had left. For me, it's worth it to let the rest of the season play out.

[Dickie Dunn]

Are there seriously basement dwellers out there calling Arya, who has literally spent the entirety of the show learning how to sword fight and training to be an assassin who can change her **** face, while wracking up an impressive and creative kill count along the way, a "Mary Sue"? That's just impressively lazy complaining.

Saw some lunatic's reddit post today about how they thought the Night King should approach Bran and kneel in front of him, bestowing himself and his forces to the living for the battle against Cersei.... and was pissed that it didn't happen. Someone else accused HBO of lying to him and stealing his money because this isn't really Game of Thrones, or at least not what he thinks Game of Thrones should be.

I don't necessarily agree with @shmenguin (though I do really wish these last two seasons were 10 episodes each), but I do get his point. Most of these people out there dodinting and moaning though are absolutely **** nuts.

[shmenguin]

@Stoosh

I think that covers why last season was a mess. The zombie heist plot was the worst thing this show has put out, but they had 5 minutes to get all the characters together and set up the finale. There are absolutely better ways to handle it, but I can’t place all the blame on D and D. They were set up to fail by the source material unexpectedly running dry.

But the common complaints this week aren’t about teleporting or the big plot points. It was just a nonsensical episode for no strong reason. The Dothraki charging for no reason - making really important characters just completely expendable. Jon having no role in the battle even though he’s THE guy. The main characters being surrounded by 50 wights, only to have the camera cut away and it’s suddenlt 2 or 3. Arya being the hero even though she hasn’t been part of this story at all. Bran having no role whatsoever. Melisandre only really contributing by giving a pep talk. These aren’t things they got backed into a corner with. It’s just unforced error after unforced error.

[Troy Loney]

I agree with Stoosh. While the show has become a marvel movie, Martin should have probably been tying up loose ends in book five as opposed to continuing to expand the story. But thats why endings are hard, and also why all the ire should be pointed at George for abandoning the story.

[Lelldorin]

@Stoosh

I think that covers why last season was a mess. The zombie heist plot was the worst thing this show has put out, but they had 5 minutes to get all the characters together and set up the finale. There are absolutely better ways to handle it, but I can’t place all the blame on D and D. They were set up to fail by the source material unexpectedly running dry.

But the common complaints this week aren’t about teleporting or the big plot points. It was just a nonsensical episode for no strong reason. The Dothraki charging for no reason - making really important characters just completely expendable. Jon having no role in the battle even though he’s THE guy. The main characters being surrounded by 50 wights, only to have the camera cut away and it’s suddenlt 2 or 3. Arya being the hero even though she hasn’t been part of this story at all. Bran having no role whatsoever. Melisandre only really contributing by giving a pep talk. These aren’t things they got backed into a corner with. It’s just unforced error after unforced error.

+1

[Lemon Berry Lobster]

@Stoosh

I think that covers why last season was a mess. The zombie heist plot was the worst thing this show has put out, but they had 5 minutes to get all the characters together and set up the finale. There are absolutely better ways to handle it, but I can’t place all the blame on D and D. They were set up to fail by the source material unexpectedly running dry.

But the common complaints this week aren’t about teleporting or the big plot points. It was just a nonsensical episode for no strong reason. The Dothraki charging for no reason - making really important characters just completely expendable. Jon having no role in the battle even though he’s THE guy. The main characters being surrounded by 50 wights, only to have the camera cut away and it’s suddenlt 2 or 3. Arya being the hero even though she hasn’t been part of this story at all. Bran having no role whatsoever. Melisandre only really contributing by giving a pep talk. These aren’t things they got backed into a corner with. It’s just unforced error after unforced error.

The Dothraki always charged into battle like that, it was how they fought. While it was stupid, it really wasn't out of the norm of their fighting technique. Robert Baratheon even said only a fool would meet them in the open field.

What important characters were expendable? Unless you mean the WW who did absolutely nothing in this battle. Huge disappointment there.

Agreed Jon was useless. Would have liked to see him have a sword battle with the NK, even if that doesn't mean he would have ultimately killed him.

The main characters being super heroes was far too much.

Arya has been training to be an assassin for 3+ seasons. Plus Winterfell is her home, she would everything to protect it.

Bran lead the NK into Winterfell in a way that the NK's hubris thought he had a lay up win. Also not sure what else the 3ER can do without legs.

Melisandre lit the fire on the barrier around Winterfell as well. This head the horde off long enough to get to the event of Arya killing the NK.

[robbiestoupe]

Source of the post The zombie heist plot was the worst thing this show has put out

Couldn't agree more. The last thing this show needed was zombies.

[eddy]

Source of the post The zombie heist plot was the worst thing this show has put out

Couldn't agree more. The last thing this show needed was zombies.

yet weren't they introduced before anything else in the 1st episode of the series?

[shmenguin]

Source of the post The zombie heist plot was the worst thing this show has put out

Couldn't agree more. The last thing this show needed was zombies.

Ok.

I think the WW plot is (was) interesting because of the narrative contrast with the political plot, but sure. I would have also enjoyed a thoughtful, non-supernatural drama.

But in both book and show, undead people were key players from jump street.

[shmenguin]

Also not sure what else the 3ER can do without legs.

what could the oracle of all information, who can also possess people and animals, contribute from a stationary position? Lots, actually.

Melisandre lit the fire on the barrier around Winterfell as well. This head the horde off long enough to get to the event of Arya killing the NK.

how's that? i only watched this once, but i'm not sure what the practical difference would have been if the barrier wouldn't have been lit. they easily broke through it, and arya was already inside the castle the whole time. it bought them a couple minutes, but they didn't gain any advantage. i guess a handful of known characters were able to scurry away, but that didn't really impact the battle. but sure, we can maybe infer that a few hundred unsullied managed to get to safer ground, but it's not clear how that would have helped, based on the staging of the battle. it wouldn't have hurt to use the lighting of the barrier as some massive leveler of the playing field. they could have used it as a trap that evened up the numbers, creating a more realistic path for jaime, brienne, etc to survive. but they didn't do that. it was like when Gob swapped out the coolers in Arrested Development. "What'd that buy, like 30 seconds?"

[Lemon Berry Lobster]

Also not sure what else the 3ER can do without legs.

what could the oracle of all information, who can also possess people and animals, contribute from a stationary position? Lots, actually.

Melisandre lit the fire on the barrier around Winterfell as well. This head the horde off long enough to get to the event of Arya killing the NK.

how's that? i only watched this once, but i'm not sure what the practical difference would have been if the barrier wouldn't have been lit. they easily broke through it, and arya was already inside the castle the whole time. it bought them a couple minutes, but they didn't gain any advantage. i guess a handful of known characters were able to scurry away, but that didn't really impact the battle. but sure, we can maybe infer that a few hundred unsullied managed to get to safer ground, but it's not clear how that would have helped, based on the staging of the battle. it wouldn't have hurt to use the lighting of the barrier as some massive leveler of the playing field. they could have used it as a trap that evened up the numbers, creating a more realistic path for jaime, brienne, etc to survive. but they didn't do that. it was like when Gob swapped out the coolers in Arrested Development. "What'd that buy, like 30 seconds?"

He gave Arya the knife that she used to kill the NK. Maybe he knew the others had to do the work? I agree he didn't do much but he also can't see 100% of the future.

Melisandre showed up right before the fight, not like she was planned to be there.

[robbiestoupe]

Source of the post The zombie heist plot was the worst thing this show has put out

Couldn't agree more. The last thing this show needed was zombies.

yet weren't they introduced before anything else in the 1st episode of the series?

I'm OK with white walkers being undead, it's just the whole zombie "BRAINZ, EET BRAINZ" hands in front of them while they walk trope that throws me off.

I just remember a particular episode in season 5 or 6 where my wife and I said to ourselves, "I guess this has become a zombie show now."

It seems like the translation from books to show is off in this area. Never did I get the impression Winterfell was about to be invaded by World War Z zombies.

[shafnutz05]

lol, I was convinced that the dead wouldn't even be there until I saw the Dothraki start to disappear.

[the wicked child]

It seems like the translation from books to show is off in this area. Never did I get the impression Winterfell was about to be invaded by World War Z zombies.

The books aren't even remotely close to this far along, so you can't really make any comparisons.

At this rate, they never will be.

Not saying you have to like it, but you're comparing it to a black hole atm.

[shafnutz05]

GRRM's books are doomed now, largely because every single thing he writes if it ever does come out is going to be compared against the show. If there are plots in the book that parallel the show, people are going to scream that he is lazy and is just taking ideas from the TV show. It really sucks. At this point, the show has become canon for me.

[DigitalGypsy66]

I honestly don't think we'll see the books finished. Winds of Winter, maybe, but I doubt we'll get to book 7.

[slappybrown]

imo, zombies are dumb and bad in nearly every media (the Walking Dead was created in a lab as the perfect show I would never watch), and the mystery and lore of the NK is the only thing that kept me interested in that storyline. I wish it would have been handled a bit less clumsily and I can understand the criticism that they were built up in a certain way and the structure of the payoff wasn't great, but I dont care because now that the NK is over we get back to attractive people behaving badly and scheming and double-crosses and medieval soap opera, which is what the show is best at. Three eps of human v human fun times to close out the show is good by me. Cersei better not bite the bullet in this ep, however.

[shmenguin]

GRRM's books are doomed now, largely because every single thing he writes if it ever does come out is going to be compared against the show. If there are plots in the book that parallel the show, people are going to scream that he is lazy and is just taking ideas from the TV show. It really sucks. At this point, the show has become canon for me.

the last 6 or 7 episodes have made this less true. the showrunners butchering half of the plot has re-invigorated the readers that i've seen post on reddit. myself included, actually. what we're watching isn't his story. i'd like to see how it was supposed to play out.

[the wicked child]

I'd say that there is basically zero chance of Cersei dying in this episode. It goes up exponentially from there.

Hopefully there is a reason beyond fan service that the people who survived the long night are still there.

[Lemon Berry Lobster]

Next episode will be re-group, episode 5 big battle at KL, last episode wrap it all up.

[slappybrown]

That's how I see it, too. Half the episode will be them sorting out their issues concerning who is the united choice for the Iron Throne or divvying up the state of power post-Cersei, the other half is Cersei and Euron's machinations with the Golden Company. Maybe some Bronn action and resolving that.

Ep 5 is the siege of KL ending with Cersei's death, then 6 is the wrapup.

[Stoosh]

The show and the books each tend to only kill primary characters for a pretty clear purpose, so I think everyone that survived still around has a big part to play.

As Episode 5 is set up for a big battle (another Sapochnik-directed episode), I think we're now moving into the exposition of some of those still alive:

- Varys: Has he already or will he betray Dany/Jon? I wouldn't be surprised if he was the means by which Qyburn discovered the army of the dead had breached The Wall. Does he know of Jon's true lineage?

- Jamie: Where are his allegiances? What's he going to do if/when they get back to Kings' Landing and he finds out Cersei has been shacking up with coked-out Bam Margera. Speaking of which...

- Euron: How long before he becomes dragon food/bbq?

- Tyrion: What did Bran and he discuss during their own fireside chat in Episode 2? And while I don't think he would ever betray Dany in favor of Cersei, I'd still love to know if there was more to the deal he made with Cersei.

- Bran: When he warged in Episode 3, where did he go and what did he discover?

- Davos; Does he survive to serve as Hand of the King/Queen if Dany, Jon, or Sansa win the throne and Tyrion somehow gets killed?

- Sansa: My personal favorite to win the Iron Throne in whatever form it exists. It seems to me like they've been building her up to the be the Anti-Cersei, even to the point that they're almost dressing her like Cersei. As a ruler, she seems to be more genuinely concerned about taking care of her people. She's keenly aware of who can be trusted, who cannot, who is loyal and who is not. She usually sees a bigger picture that Dany & Cersei often do not.

- Brienne: Her arc isn't done. I think it ends with her getting what she always wanted - serving as Kings/Queensguard to Sansa.

- Dany/Jon: How do they react to the victory? How do they deal with Jon's revelation of his lineage, especially since the only two people we know can prove it don't really have physical proof of it? So does Howland Reed show up (probably not, but it could be interesting)? And as someone said earlier, Jon seems to have this almost subtle death wish and I don't get the sense that he has any desire for the Iron Throne.

[eddy]

So is anyone dying this week? Maybe euron?