Game of Thrones Discussion

Postby **shafnutz05** » Sun Jun 19, 2016 10:17 pm

As great as this episode turned out for Jon and friends, next episode is going to go badly, IMO. Wouldn't be surprised if Littlefinger turned on them before the end of the finale.

Postby **the wicked child** » Sun Jun 19, 2016 10:24 pm

As great as this episode turned out for Jon and friends, next episode is going to go badly, IMO. Wouldn't be surprised if Littlefinger turned on them before the end of the finale.

No doubt. There basically is no army of the north now. Plus there is the matter of this scene from last season...

Postby **obhave** » Sun Jun 19, 2016 10:38 pm

Overall, very good episode I thought the battle scene was really well shot, even if predictable that littlefinger would save the day. I felt so good for Sansa at the end of the episode. She has been strong this season, and I'm happy to see it. Where was ghost? I know the Iron born got to Mereen quickly, but happy that story is moving forward.

Looking forward to Davos and melisandre interaction, whenever that happens.

Postby **shafnutz05** » Sun Jun 19, 2016 10:49 pm

@obhave, you must be loving this. Strong Sansa plus the Dany/Yara girl power fest

Postby **AuthorTony** » Sun Jun 19, 2016 10:49 pm

Great episode. Loved everything except some of the CGI in the battle scene.

Postby **DigitalGypsy66** » Sun Jun 19, 2016 11:09 pm

The battle scene - when Jon is in the middle of the cavalry charge - reminded me a lot of the Brecourt assault on Band of Brothers (the four 105mm howitzer guns on D-Day). Intense. That's a good thing.

RIP Wun Wun.

Postby **the wicked child** » Sun Jun 19, 2016 11:18 pm

Updated death predictions: (spoiler alert, a couple of these are due to the books)

Postby **obhave** » Sun Jun 19, 2016 11:27 pm

@obhave, you must be loving this. Strong Sansa plus the Dany/Yara girl power fest

Plus a lesbian Yara. I may be enjoying it

Postby **Spangler** » Mon Jun 20, 2016 12:09 am

That single shot with Jon on the battlefield was glorious. That was probably the most realistic depiction of medieval combat ever on screen. Just brutal.

Postby **MalkinIsMyHomeboy** » Mon Jun 20, 2016 12:17 am

That single shot with Jon on the battlefield was glorious. That was probably the most realistic depiction of medieval combat ever on screen. Just brutal.

I felt my self choking on air during that scene. Really well done

Postby **shafnutz05** » Mon Jun 20, 2016 8:32 am

As always, AV Club did a wonderful job sizing up my thoughts

http://www.avclub.com/tvclub/thrones-st ... end-238453

But the ways that “Battle Of The Bastards” builds to this moment seemed disconnected from that central goal. While the show emphasized Jon’s motivation in both rescuing his brother and avenging his sister’s mistreatment, I don’t know if those were emphasized enough for Jon and Ramsay to be a particularly meaningful showdown. The Rickon sequence that opens the battle is an elaborate bit of staging, but Rickon’s long absence robbed the character of any particular meaning to the larger narrative, and I felt the season was missing a scene or two where Rickon could be reaffirmed as a character and not just a tool in this particular conflict. I never questioned whether Rickon would be felled by one of Ramsay’s arrows because Rickon dying was the only way the show could reasonably sell Jon’s motivation. Rickon never had a place in the larger narrative, and so his place here feels arbitrary, and yet also functionally necessary in ways that speak to the emptiness of the battle itself. The storyline doesn’t work without Rickon, and yet Rickon’s presence adds nothing, creating a justification for a battle to mark the climax to Ramsay’s villain arc and yet doing nothing to make that battle more compelling. Ramsay’s evil is not escalated by his killing of Rickon: I’ve long been desensitized to Ramsay’s acts of torture and murder, and this just felt like more of the same.

And that’s where “Battle Of The Bastards” let me down. Given how impressive elements of the sequence are, it shouldn’t feel as perfunctory as it does. Rickon’s death shouldn’t have felt so choreographed, Littlefinger’s triumphant arrival shouldn’t have been so easy to see coming, and I’m not sure that the “leave” of the sequence, if you will, should have been so muddled. I sense that Benioff and Weiss were aiming for something similar to the ambiguity of the Tyrell and Baratheon arrivals in previous conflicts, but I remain wholly confused by the nature of Sansa’s communication with Littlefinger: We saw her write him a letter, but was he always planning to ride in? Why was he late? Why was she with him? Did she know when talking strategy with Jon that Littlefinger might be coming? Why wouldn’t she tell Jon to wait? Why is she hiding this from Jon other than—and here’s where the meta comes back—ensuring that there’s an epic underdog battle that lets the show one-up itself?

Postby **eddy** » Mon Jun 20, 2016 8:54 am

Source of the post but I remain wholly confused by the nature of Sansa’s communication with Littlefinger: We saw her write him a letter, but was he always planning to ride in? Why was he late? Why was she with him? Did she know when talking strategy with Jon that Littlefinger might be coming? Why wouldn’t she tell Jon to wait? Why is she hiding this from Jon other than—and here’s where the meta comes back—ensuring that there’s an epic underdog battle that lets the show one-up itself?

That part was frustrating to me, especially after we see Theon and whats her face magically appear talking with Dany and Tyrion. Couldn't have timed that one any better Littlefinger, way to save the day! When they were planning around the war table, are we to believe that that was the moment when Sansa was to bring up Littlefinger, but Jon is so reckless in dismissing anything but war NOW, that she can't blurb something out...

Postby **Dickie Dunn** » Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:14 am

For as much as I despised the character, it was pretty awesome to see Ramsay Bolton, strategic genius.

Postby **the wicked child** » Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:18 am

For as much as I despised the character, it was pretty awesome to see Ramsay Bolton, strategic genius.

I don't know how much they covered it in the show, but his tactics were straight out of the Roose Bolton playbook. Well, minus the killing of Rickon.

In the books, Roose is careful to make sure that he uses the forces loyal to Robb in their assault on the Riverlands, ensuring that those loyal to him are left.

Ramsay does the same, saving his men for when victory appears imminent.

Postby **Dickie Dunn** » Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:32 am

I'm not sure if that was covered at all in the show, but it was pretty awesome. Who the hell is actually left in the North to support the new Stark regime at Winterfell?

Postby **shafnutz05** » Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:41 am

I'm not sure if that was covered at all in the show, but it was pretty awesome. Who the hell is actually left in the North to support the new Stark regime at Winterfell?

A certain Lord from White Harbor is the only one I can think of. For a brief couple of minutes yesterday, I actually deluded myself into thinking that he was on his way.

Postby **PFiDC** » Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:46 am

Source of the post at some point it passes from showing the intensity of battle to not being able to tell wtf is going on.

That was what was so terrifying to me...

Postby **MalkinIsMyHomeboy** » Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:48 am

Yara and Theon teleporting to Mereen was very odd. Considering the Iron Islands are on the western side of Westeros, it would've taken a long ass time to sail around Westeros.

Postby **DigitalGypsy66** » Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:49 am

Source of the post at some point it passes from showing the intensity of battle to not being able to tell wtf is going on.
That was what was so terrifying to me...

Precisely. From my understanding of medieval charges and combat (

), it's a big clusterf#%k. Survival is more based on luck than skill as a combatant.

Postby **the wicked child** » Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:54 am

A thought occurred to me... What if "Valar Morghulis" is more than just a Bravosi phrase, but a spoiler in plain sight for where this story is headed?

The men perish in the battle against the walkers and the women are left to rule over the wasteland.

Postby **eddy** » Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:56 am

Source of the post Who the hell is actually left in the North to support the new Stark regime at Winterfell?

I didn't think about that, there really isn't anyone left besides the handful of them and then Littlefinger and the Vales Army (I'd imagine they would go back to the Vale?)

Postby **Dickie Dunn** » Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:58 am

Yara and Theon teleporting to Mereen was very odd. Considering the Iron Islands are on the western side of Westeros, it would've taken a long ass time to sail around Westeros.

The show cares very little about Westerosian geography and travel time, which I am completely fine with.

Source of the post at some point it passes from showing the intensity of battle to not being able to tell wtf is going on.
That was what was so terrifying to me...
Precisely. From my understanding of medieval charges and combat ( ), it's a big clusterf#%k. Survival is more based on luck than skill as a combatant.

Same. I've never understood how anyone survived medieval combat.

So, to me it's obvious that Littlefinger wants Sansa. As far as anyone knows, she's the last surviving Stark, needs an heir, and Littlefinger wants to make a Stark/Baelish baby. But why give Sansa to Ramsay in the first place? Legitimate eff up on his part or part of a long play? Also, I could see Sansa (finally) making Jon a Stark to avoid what Littlefinger wants.

Postby **MalkinIsMyHomeboy** » Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:58 am

did Sansa offer Littlefinger anything in return for support in battle? I can't remember off the top of my head

he isn't a person who does favors with no return

Postby **shafnutz05** » Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:03 am

I'd imagine they would go back to the Vale?)

No way. Like I said, by the end of next episode, Baelish has betrayed the Stark/Snow clan. He'll either die or we will go into next season with some tragic stuff unfolding. I can easily see Tormund or Davos dying next episode. I just have a suspicion it's going to be a rough finale for our Northern good guys.

Postby **Dickie Dunn** » Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:12 am

Source of the post Who the hell is actually left in the North to support the new Stark regime at Winterfell?
I didn't think about that, there really isn't anyone left besides the handful of them and then Littlefinger and the Vales Army (I'd imagine they would go back to the Vale?)

The internet tells me that the main northern houses are: Bolton, Cerwyn, Dustin, Flint, Glover, Hornwood, Karstark, Manderly, Mormont, Reed, Ryswell, Tallhart, and Umber.

It's reasonable to assume that Houses Bolton, Karstark, and Umber just got wiped out. I'm sure there are some remnants of Karstark and Umber, but to say they're not in good standing with the Starks would be an understatement. Were the Glovers with House Bolton or did they just decline to support House Stark?

Mormont pledged all 62 of their men. Who knows how many remain, but they're with the Starks. People saw Hornwood and banners on the Stark side. There was mention of sending ravens to Cerwin and Manderly, but that was pretty much the end of them being mentioned.

I'm sure this is something the show won't even touch on. The Starks will have support of all the small houses, everyone else will fall in line, and The North will remember.