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robbiestoupe
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Postby robbiestoupe » Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:54 pm

The truth is he probably used some really bad language, and they decided to add on this other fluff that really isn't anything in hopes to make him look worse.

Regardless, dodint's initial reaction was my reaction. Good riddance, doll face

MalkinIsMyHomeboy
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Postby MalkinIsMyHomeboy » Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:56 pm

Yeah? I mean, I've never found the 'q' word to be particularly useful myself...but I'm sure I've sent an email or a text when I was younger that called something that I didn't like "gay" before...you didn't do that ever?

I grew up and stopped saying that...but this fun game where all of the people that aren't getting investigated or fired get to nitpick their way through 10 year old text messages and go, "yeah, see, right there...he said "pusscake" that offensive to both homosexuals and pastries...lock him up!" I don't know, I don't think that's the goal of societal exclusion policy...
well, firstly, he resigned. from what I'm seeing the NFL was going to keep leaking emails until the Raiders fired him, but he wasn't cancelled necessarily; he cancelled himself

secondly, Gruden was disposable. He's a shitty coach on an infinitely long contract. Players have gotten away with worse things (e.g. Tyreek Hill) but players are much more important to a franchise/sport than a coach. The optics of this is bad and Gruden isn't so important to the Raiders/NFL that he would've survived this


I get what you're saying and agree with it to a degree; for example the Demaurice Smith "lips" comment isn't as bad to me as others make it (it's one comment with no context) but Gruden was in a gots-to-go situation now. and this isn't a "I tweeted something racist when I was 15" situation. Gruden was an adult when this happened and they were sent as recent as 3 years ago. He's a bigot and should've been canned

Troy Loney
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Postby Troy Loney » Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:58 pm

Yeah? I mean, I've never found the 'q' word to be particularly useful myself...but I'm sure I've sent an email or a text when I was younger that called something that I didn't like "gay" before...you didn't do that ever?

I grew up and stopped saying that...but this fun game where all of the people that aren't getting investigated or fired get to nitpick their way through 10 year old text messages and go, "yeah, see, right there...he said "pusscake" that offensive to both homosexuals and pastries...lock him up!" I don't know, I don't think that's the goal of societal exclusion policy...
I think the first bolded part is a bit misleading since we're talking about something that was ongoing apparently.

And the second bolded part is the thing that should happened. This isn't some like "the culture was different", these are emails that would get most of us fired if directed at our colleagues.

tifosi77
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Postby tifosi77 » Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:23 pm

People that put that kind of stuff on the internet thinking it’d never be found or seen, have what’s coming to them.
"Never put something in an email that you wouldn't want to see as a NYT headline" is sort of Office Conduct 101, and yet...

mikey
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Postby mikey » Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:25 pm

Yeah? I mean, I've never found the 'q' word to be particularly useful myself...but I'm sure I've sent an email or a text when I was younger that called something that I didn't like "gay" before...you didn't do that ever?

I grew up and stopped saying that...but this fun game where all of the people that aren't getting investigated or fired get to nitpick their way through 10 year old text messages and go, "yeah, see, right there...he said "pusscake" that offensive to both homosexuals and pastries...lock him up!" I don't know, I don't think that's the goal of societal exclusion policy...
well, firstly, he resigned. from what I'm seeing the NFL was going to keep leaking emails until the Raiders fired him, but he wasn't cancelled necessarily; he cancelled himself

secondly, Gruden was disposable. He's a shitty coach on an infinitely long contract. Players have gotten away with worse things (e.g. Tyreek Hill) but players are much more important to a franchise/sport than a coach. The optics of this is bad and Gruden isn't so important to the Raiders/NFL that he would've survived this


I get what you're saying and agree with it to a degree; for example the Demaurice Smith "lips" comment isn't as bad to me as others make it (it's one comment with no context) but Gruden was in a gots-to-go situation now. and this isn't a "I tweeted something racist when I was 15" situation. Gruden was an adult when this happened and they were sent as recent as 3 years ago. He's a bigot and should've been canned
1. I'm assuming this is in jest...?
2. Which tells you all you need to know about this procedure...it's selective based on rank, not the merit of the claims.
3. Nothing to say here, that's how you feel about it and that's fair enough...

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Postby mikey » Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:27 pm

Yeah? I mean, I've never found the 'q' word to be particularly useful myself...but I'm sure I've sent an email or a text when I was younger that called something that I didn't like "gay" before...you didn't do that ever?

I grew up and stopped saying that...but this fun game where all of the people that aren't getting investigated or fired get to nitpick their way through 10 year old text messages and go, "yeah, see, right there...he said "pusscake" that offensive to both homosexuals and pastries...lock him up!" I don't know, I don't think that's the goal of societal exclusion policy...
I think the first bolded part is a bit misleading since we're talking about something that was ongoing apparently.

And the second bolded part is the thing that should happened. This isn't some like "the culture was different", these are emails that would get most of us fired if directed at our colleagues.
I didn't get the sense that this was anything but old emails, if it's still going on then I wasn't aware...

I don't think professional sports is the same office setting that professional professionaling is...whether that's right, wrong, or indifferent is up to the beholder, but that's the landscape...if this is an attempt to work to change that, fine, but that assumes that Gruden - to your first point - is still acting in this manner...that part is unclear to me...

nocera
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Postby nocera » Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:28 pm

Guys, this isn't the story of somebody who said some regrettable things in their youth and have since changed. Some of these emails are from 2018. Gruden was 55 years old.

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Postby mikey » Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:31 pm

So...it can be too late to change?

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Postby Morkle » Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:31 pm

I think this is the interesting thing to me. The NFL could have selectively avoided releasing any of this stuff, and Gruden could have gone on his merry way with his emails and nobody was the wiser. This gets back to the, why did they even release these e-mails in the first place? Why not just cover it up, or selectively ignore it?

There was speculation that the NFL leaked them, themselves, why?

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Postby nocera » Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:32 pm

So...it can be too late to change?
It's never too late to change. Did Gruden change?

LITT
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Postby LITT » Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:35 pm

very puzzled by the perspectives in this discussion

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Postby mikey » Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:38 pm

So...it can be too late to change?
It's never too late to change. Did Gruden change?
I don't know. I don't know him. You made it seem like there's no potential for redemption/evolution with your language, just because of his age. But that's not how this works...

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Postby mikey » Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:39 pm

very puzzled by the perspectives in this discussion
Just say what you mean...

nocera
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Postby nocera » Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:41 pm

So...it can be too late to change?
It's never too late to change. Did Gruden change?
I don't know. I don't know him. You made it seem like there's no potential for redemption/evolution with your language, just because of his age. But that's not how this works...
The talk was of "I said some things when I was a kid that I wasn't proud of but I grew up and changed." We're not talking about stuff from 20 years ago. This stuff was said 3 years ago. And we're not talking about a kid who maybe doesn't know any better. We're talking about a 55 year old man. We can make excuses for him all we want, but there are consequences for actions/words. The world has changed. You can't call somebody a f----t or queer and expect people to look the other way.

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Postby dodint » Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:41 pm

I am a gleeful opportunist here. Gruden has been a complete douchebag for decades. He should have been drummed out of the sport on that alone, but instead, it took some exposed bigotry to get it done.

Spreading the topless cheerleader pics is pretty bad, if the language stuff is too easy to excuse away. The cheerleaders never posed with the intent for topless pictures to be taken. They were outtakes that were shot between poses when the women were changing outfits, poses, etc. Someone at the WFT made a video/photo collection with all of these outtakes in them and passed it around the front office. Sounds like douchebag got ahold of them.

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Postby Morkle » Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:44 pm

The other laugher is that these people did these on "corporate/team-owned" accounts. Largely, I'm more annoyed these people were this dumb to do it and not on private accounts. Unless they did, and they got caught via just using PCs.

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Postby mikey » Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:51 pm

So...it can be too late to change?
It's never too late to change. Did Gruden change?
I don't know. I don't know him. You made it seem like there's no potential for redemption/evolution with your language, just because of his age. But that's not how this works...
The talk was of "I said some things when I was a kid that I wasn't proud of but I grew up and changed." We're not talking about stuff from 20 years ago. This stuff was said 3 years ago. And we're not talking about a kid who maybe doesn't know any better. We're talking about a 55 year old man. We can make excuses for him all we want, but there are consequences for actions/words. The world has changed. You can't call somebody a f----t or queer and expect people to look the other way.
The age part matters less because this is much more of a societal shift about that language not being ok than it is a maturity thing. I've coached hockey for 8 year olds as well as college-aged kids and everything in between over the last several years. When I grew up, there were a bunch of homophobic things said on the rink all the time...at age 10, at age 20...as well as retard and all of that kind of things...

Now, you don't hear those words on the ice or in the room...the players are the same age, they would be predisposed to the same immature language...but they don't use it anymore because that's what society is moved to. Which is obviously a positive.

Gruden had 40+ years of living in that society where that language and that demeanor was ok...and he's a career football guy. I have kids this year that were born in 2002...they had very little exposure to that, it was easy to get them away from that language because it's not part of their regular vocabulary...

That's my overall point about the age thing...the age thing isn't the demerit you think it is...

I agree, there are consequences for what people say...and if he's continuing to act in this way, then yes, I'm glad that he's been trashed...I just don't know whether that was the case or not...was every fourth word f****t in 2001 and by 2018 it was every 100,000th word, and now he doesn't use it all? Or does he still use it and just not type it out...? Like, this is a guy that is constantly talking to hundreds of people every day...it seems like even a brief survey could answer a lot of this...and maybe that's happened, and this is the verdict, and that's more than fine with me...I have no particular need for Jon Gruden near my life...

tifosi77
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Postby tifosi77 » Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:59 pm

Perhaps we should table our own direct experiences in slinging slurs about until it becomes a factor in our viability to be the ongoing face and effective CEO of a $3bn global brand.

The standard is different at this level.

The real problem here isn't Gruden, of course. It is that he was operating this way rather openly without any apparent fear of consequence, which has much broader implications. And it goes over a 6-yr period right up to the time he was hired by the Raiders.

I don't think the League/Goodell particularly cares about how he characterized the Commish. If it was just that, this would still be hush-hush. (I mean, I'm sure RG has either direct or anecdotal evidence that a rather large number of high-profile football people have a low opinion of him) The Raiders are a marquee franchise in a new burgeoning pro sports market with a bonkers-ass new barn. From a pure business POV I'm sure they'd quite prefer this wasn't a thing.

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Postby MalkinIsMyHomeboy » Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:05 pm

is mikey gonna have to resign from FAF after some of his emails are leaked?

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Postby shmenguin » Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:31 pm

The q***r comment…that’s a bigot, folks.

Most of this stuff is the conduct of an old timey ass hat, like the old guy who fixes your air conditioner. But dropping that kind of hard Q shows that he has an active interest in punching down on disenfranchised social groups.

I’d still like him to have the opportunity for contrition. I hate that the trial and conviction takes place on Twitter. But…he’s trash. F this guy.

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Postby shoeshine boy » Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:38 pm



I’d still like him to have the opportunity for contrition. I hate that the trial and conviction takes place on Twitter. But…he’s trash. F this guy.
I rarely believe contrition. I believe that most people aren't sorry for what they said/did, they're sorry they got caught.

tifosi77
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Postby tifosi77 » Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:44 pm

Agree. It's the outing of the bad conduct that he's regretful of. You don't just go from guy-who-sends-q***r-in-an-email to guy-who's-sorry-he-sent-q***r-in-an-email-because-golly-that's-awful in 72 hours. You do, however, go to well-I -certainly-didn't-expect-that-to-become-public guy in 72 hours.

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Postby genoscoif » Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:52 pm

Perhaps we should table our own direct experiences in slinging slurs about until it becomes a factor in our viability to be the ongoing face and effective CEO of a $3bn global brand.

The standard is different at this level.

The real problem here isn't Gruden, of course. It is that he was operating this way rather openly without any apparent fear of consequence, which has much broader implications. And it goes over a 6-yr period right up to the time he was hired by the Raiders.

I don't think the League/Goodell particularly cares about how he characterized the Commish. If it was just that, this would still be hush-hush. (I mean, I'm sure RG has either direct or anecdotal evidence that a rather large number of high-profile football people have a low opinion of him) The Raiders are a marquee franchise in a new burgeoning pro sports market with a bonkers-ass new barn. From a pure business POV I'm sure they'd quite prefer this wasn't a thing.
I think the bolded part is what makes this seem a bit suspect in my mind (making it public and eating one of their own)... because I'd imagine that nothing in those emails would be considered out of bounds within the normal everyday culture of the NFL. The q word, the lips comment, the woman ref stuff...yeah I'd imagine you'd hear the same or very, very similar in every NFL locker room, headquarters, team plane, etc. amongst the players and coaches.

I'm not attempting to defend what he said, but the NFL culture ain't exactly the woke brigade...and Gruden is/was part of that culture. Everything sent was to someone else in that 'culture', and I'm not sure anything said in that email would've offended 99.9% of his coaches or players.

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Postby tifosi77 » Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:49 pm

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I don't think there's any grand scheme at play here. They didn't just get Gruden out at LV, his NFL account has been deleted.

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Postby Tomas » Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:04 pm

So...it can be too late to change?
Being one of the oldest on this forum - yes, trust me, if somebody is an ahole at 55 - it's too late to change....

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