NFL

[mikey]

A kickoff that results in a touchback is hardly a play...

And does he play every single special teams snap? Well, I guess not "snap" because now we're leaking into kickoffs...

I don't know, it's pointless to continue to go down the line here...you have the Craig Adams of the NFL and we're talking about HOF because he made the "All Fourth Line Team" a few times based, in part, because of his reputation as he has no public measurables of note...

[JC2]

Being an exclusive special teams player just means you aren't good at anything else.

PK specialists don't get into the NHL hall of fame...

[tifosi77]

The Hester discussion reminds me of the Chris Rock bit about his neighborhood in Alpine, NJ. How there were only four Black people who lived there - him, Mary J. Blige, Jay-Z, Eddie Murphy. Like a super-elite level of individual who rewrote the rules off their particular trade. But his white neighbor was a dentist. Not the best dentist in the world, not a dentist who eliminated plaque, just a regular dentist. If a Black dentist wanted to get into that neighborhood, they'd have had to have invented teeth, be that kind of exceptional.

Hester in the HoF as a return specialist is the Black dentist of Alpine, NJ. He is the only such player I can recall hearing talked about in this context, and I do not anticipate any other players ever making it in on these grounds. (The weekend he was inducted, we were treated to the first ever Super Bowl with not one single kick return)

(I don't care if the Rock story is accurate, that's not how allegories work)

[MalkinIsMyHomeboy]

also, not that yall would believe me anyway, but I've known of Slater's name for a long time because I know how much Belichick adored him

I couldn't find anything, but I'd love to listen to/read a deep dive as to why Belichick loved Slater so much. Most of what I can find is higher level stuff but I'd be interested to see how in particular Slater's leadership and play endeared Belichick

[mikey]

I don't think it's at all unique to know who Matthew Slater is...we've been force fed Patriots games for 30 years. I think most non-casual NFL followers, like people that are really interested in the process of the game know who that is...but that sentence alone immediately invalidates HOF candidacy probably...

[MalkinIsMyHomeboy]

my post was in response to ulf's

[willeyeam]

@ me then dodint

[genoscoif]

also, not that yall would believe me anyway, but I've known of Slater's name for a long time because I know how much Belichick adored him

I couldn't find anything, but I'd love to listen to/read a deep dive as to why Belichick loved Slater so much. Most of what I can find is higher level stuff but I'd be interested to see how in particular Slater's leadership and play endeared Belichick

So a big reason why you think he should be in the HOF revolves around Belichick's opinion of him? I thought it was common knowledge that BB is an insufferable egomaniac. It's not shocking in the least to learn that his ST guy is the greatest of all time according to him...the literal Tom Brady and Lawrence Taylor of STs. It's more likely that BB says those things to make BB look better than it is an honest and unbiased synopsis of the type of player/captain Slater was IMO. Slater's 'greatness' just adds to Belichick's greatness...especially in Belichick's eyes.

Again, he's a good guy. Probably a fantastic teammate. Was a great ST Captain, whatever that means. Made Pro Bowls, but I'm not sure why. Did a lot off the field as well, evidently. Never rocked Belichick's boat...to the tune of over $30MM in career earnings. Good for him.

None of that equals HOFer.

[MalkinIsMyHomeboy]

also, not that yall would believe me anyway, but I've known of Slater's name for a long time because I know how much Belichick adored him

I couldn't find anything, but I'd love to listen to/read a deep dive as to why Belichick loved Slater so much. Most of what I can find is higher level stuff but I'd be interested to see how in particular Slater's leadership and play endeared Belichick

So a big reason why you think he should be in the HOF revolves around Belichick's opinion of him?

I mean, yeah

anyone who claims to be as knowledgeable as Bill is delusional. I think his resume has taken a hit the past few years but he's almost certainly on most people's short list of greatest coaches ever. So, when the discussion of "is Slater a hall of famer?" of course I will have my own thoughts on the subject but also I concede that because special teams isn't as obvious as to its impact to the game, I'm a little out of my element on having a strong opinion

so then I ask myself who would I trust more...a guy who's been an NFL coach for 50 or so years or a bunch of idiots on a Penguins forum...

this is also why I said I'd be interested in hearing a deeper dive into what Belichick appreciates about Slater because there are a lot of technical things taht I don't think many people know about as to his contribution onto those Pats teams, including me. And I'd love to learn from someone who does actually know his stuff

[JC2]

[mikey]

I swear that poor boy is made of straw...

[MR25]

And he wonders why people occasionally get annoyed...

[MalkinIsMyHomeboy]

idk, I just find it funny that people on here are willing to push Belichick's opinion of a player aside so easily. Admitting we might not know everything is challenging but shows that we're able to learn and understand different perspectives

[MR25]

News flash: most coaches are going to speak highly of their own guys.

Maybe we should just induct everyone who has ever been on the Patriots since 2000, since clearly you think Bill Belichick's opinion supercedes any other HOF qualifications.

[Rylan]

i do think there should be consideration for players that are elite at their perspective expertise. I think this paves way for kickers and punters because while they are going to maligned despite being some of the highest scorers in history or equivalent.

I dont think HHOF pk'ers is necessarily apt in this case, but i do think how goalies arent 1:1 comparisons is more accurate to how special teams in the nfl is.

but also, not a hill i care much about.

i also meandered through this....so it may not be as coherent in writing as i intended. but c'est la vie.

[JC2]

I dont think HHOF pk'ers is necessarily apt in this case, but i do think how goalies arent 1:1 comparisons is more accurate to how special teams in the nfl is.

The guy is a gunner. He does one thing. We aren't inducting long snappers either.

[Dickie Dunn]

I had never heard of this scrub until just now and look forward to forgetting his name when I go to bed tonight and never thinking of him again. Not a Hall of Famer.

[genoscoif]

idk, I just find it funny that people on here are willing to push Belichick's opinion of a player aside so easily. Admitting we might not know everything is challenging but shows that we're able to learn and understand different perspectives

I just find it funny that you would blindly ignore the bias that his opinion would carry. BB is obviously knowledgeable, but he's also incredibly biased...inherent, unconscious, or other/all.

Admitting we don't need to know everything can be challenging but shows that we are able to use our own perspective, experience, and observations to form an opinion on a matter that we may not be 'experts' in, and our opinion may be more valuable than an expert's if we're the more objective party.

[mikey]

idk, I just find it funny that people on here are willing to push Belichick's opinion of a player aside so easily. Admitting we might not know everything is challenging but shows that we're able to learn and understand different perspectives

This is part that you're making up. No one is pushing BB's opinion aside everyone knows that his opinion is more valuable than ours.

But like two-five said, that's his guy. And is he framing it in any sort of context? Is he researching it?

Even though he's a genius, it doesn't mean that every bit of historical knowledge and the pathway to being an elite or a HOF player is on the tip of his tongue all the time...

In 2012, Scotty Bowman was asked to give a list of the top 100 Canadian players of all time...

He listed Gretzky 5th...

"Ok, did really value defensive play ...like a coach would?"

No...he had Maurice Richard (3rd) and Mario Lemieux (4th) ahead of him...

Wayne Gretzky said that Ales Hemsky was a top 5 player in the league, IIRC, at one point...

He said that Vitali Yachmenev is a 40 goal scorer (which was true, for his whole career...)

Do I think Scotty Bowman is stupid now? No. But what was his process? Can I make sense of his list? Or is it just a guy not really thinking about the question that long and saying stuff...?

Back to Slater, do you think that he's more valuable than a kicker himself? Because there's only like two legit kickers in the HOF and they've been around the whole time. Unlike special teams "aces" and other specialty stuff...

[CBear3]

Also BB has 3 winning seasons without TB12 under center (out of 11), so how great is his opinion really?

[mikey]

Booooooooo

[CBear3]

Certainly not as good as a local coach who’s never had 1 losing season, right?

[willeyeam]

Makes you think

[MalkinIsMyHomeboy]

idk, I just find it funny that people on here are willing to push Belichick's opinion of a player aside so easily. Admitting we might not know everything is challenging but shows that we're able to learn and understand different perspectives

This is part that you're making up. No one is pushing BB's opinion aside everyone knows that his opinion is more valuable than ours.

But like two-five said, that's his guy. And is he framing it in any sort of context? Is he researching it?

Even though he's a genius, it doesn't mean that every bit of historical knowledge and the pathway to being an elite or a HOF player is on the tip of his tongue all the time...

In 2012, Scotty Bowman was asked to give a list of the top 100 Canadian players of all time...

He listed Gretzky 5th...

"Ok, did really value defensive play ...like a coach would?"

No...he had Maurice Richard (3rd) and Mario Lemieux (4th) ahead of him...

Wayne Gretzky said that Ales Hemsky was a top 5 player in the league, IIRC, at one point...

He said that Vitali Yachmenev is a 40 goal scorer (which was true, for his whole career...)

Do I think Scotty Bowman is stupid now? No. But what was his process? Can I make sense of his list? Or is it just a guy not really thinking about the question that long and saying stuff...?

Back to Slater, do you think that he's more valuable than a kicker himself? Because there's only like two legit kickers in the HOF and they've been around the whole time. Unlike special teams "aces" and other specialty stuff...

I understand and I guess this is another thing we’ll have to agree to disagree on. Like with Hester, it’s hard for me to fully articulate, but to me the story of football is better told with him as part of it. Even if he didn’t have as much as a overall impact on the game, his return ability was electrifying and he was the best to ever do it from as a punt returner and to me that’s worth celebrating. I’m not saying I want every punt returner in…the only next guy I’d want in has to be even better than Hester.


now, an interesting and unpopular with me colloquy with that is that if Hester is in, Cordarelle Patterson is probably in because statistically he is the best KR of all time and THAT I disagree with; we never had Patterson conversations like we did Hester conversations so even if he’s quantifiably Hester’s kick returning equivalent, I don’t think the story of football would be better served with Patterson (and thus not a HoFer)


to that end, that’s why I feel like Slater should get in. He is, both by Belichicks account and the general medias account based on Pro Bowls and All Pros, the greatest non kicking non receiving special teamser of all time. Even though it’s a smaller part of the game, it’s still a 17-18% piece of it and I think it’s reasonable to tell the story of special teams play with both him and Trasker


Obviously (this thread as an example) special teams doesn’t get a ton of respect by non football people. Which is understandable because it is a smaller, more gimmick-y part of the game. But I think this is where hearing coaches talk about how important Slater is and Belichiks more in depth thoughts on why he think Slater is a hall of famer. You could still disagree with him, of course, like with Bowman’s rankings, but Belichick is obviously a smart football mind and I’d be willing to listen to him if he made the right case for it

[tifosi77]

In 2012, Scotty Bowman was asked to give a list of the top 100 Canadian players of all time...

He listed Gretzky 5th...

"Ok, did really value defensive play ...like a coach would?"

No...he had Maurice Richard (3rd) and Mario Lemieux (4th) ahead of him...

Bowman once described Mario as the best defensive player (any position) he ever saw/coached (I forget which distinction) But just last year in The Atlantic, after having a think about it in the last decade, he said this:

“He’s No. 2, huh?” said Scotty Bowman, the NHL’s winningest coach, of Mario Lemieux, the second-ranked player on The Athletic’s list of the greatest players of the modern era of the NHL.

“You might have him too low. Mario’s the best player that ever lived.”

Presumably that includes defensive Canadians.

But that's for a different sub-forum.