Pirates Offseason Thread 2022-23

[Troy Loney]

Big spenders.

But honestly, not sure they could have done any better than him and Choi to upgrade at 1B. I was fearful of Aguilar or sano

[King Colby]

The more major league players the merrier

[willeyeam]

Big spenders.

But honestly, not sure they could have done any better than him and Choi to upgrade at 1B. I was fearful of Aguilar or sano

Josh Bell.

This is an acceptable platoon though. MLB players at least

[Troy Loney]

I'm kind of surprised at all this negativity, I think if you look from A ball up things are looking a lot more promising.

Every year around this time there is roster fodder added to and often times quickly removed from the 40 man. I wouldn't put a ton of stock into acquisitions like "Lewin"

And I hope they do discard Lewin and that scrub from the Rockies before camp.

I am definitely going to be more bullish on this team than I was last year. I think they will flirt with .500 longer than we are expecting. And at the same time, I think this is the last year of no expectations for the big league squad. Say what you want about the development limitations, but endy’s breakout was all here in Pittsburgh. Suwinski was not a high profile guy in San Diego, and he’s a major leaguer now.

Also, Cruz could have easily gone a different direction, especially after his potential manslaughter. 2021 was a legit breakout, and there are some definite candidates to have major 2023 breakouts (Davis, gonzales, Lopez, peguero, Mitchell).

The major gap is pitching depth, lots of interesting guys at the lower levels, but if burrows and priester flop, they are in trouble.

[DigitalGypsy66]

It seems they are going after lower cost players that suffered with all of the shifting over the last few years. Both Choi and Santana were heavily shifted against, and lost production because of it. This could get interesting.

[willeyeam]

Santana hits like 210 but walks a ton. Yinzers are gonna hate that average

[Dickie Dunn]

It seems they are going after lower cost players that suffered with all of the shifting over the last few years. Both Choi and Santana were heavily shifted against, and lost production because of it. This could get interesting.

Narrator: It didn't get interesting.

[King Colby]

I'm kind of surprised at all this negativity, I think if you look from A ball up things are looking a lot more promising.

Every year around this time there is roster fodder added to and often times quickly removed from the 40 man. I wouldn't put a ton of stock into acquisitions like "Lewin"

And I hope they do discard Lewin and that scrub from the Rockies before camp.

I am definitely going to be more bullish on this team than I was last year. I think they will flirt with .500 longer than we are expecting. And at the same time, I think this is the last year of no expectations for the big league squad. Say what you want about the development limitations, but endy’s breakout was all here in Pittsburgh. Suwinski was not a high profile guy in San Diego, and he’s a major leaguer now.

Also, Cruz could have easily gone a different direction, especially after his potential manslaughter. 2021 was a legit breakout, and there are some definite candidates to have major 2023 breakouts (Davis, gonzales, Lopez, peguero, Mitchell).

The major gap is pitching depth, lots of interesting guys at the lower levels, but if burrows and priester flop, they are in trouble.

I'm expecting a 2011-like season. I hope they still add another OF and SP and also just put bae on the damn team as a utility man

[Troy Loney]

Santana hits like 210 but walks a ton. Yinzers are gonna hate that average

Doesn't strike out either, he's been running an absurdly low BABIP. Not sure if that's shift related, but the numbers have to be bottomed out as long as he doesn't strike out more and walk less.

But, also wonder if maybe Newman was a guy in line to see better results with the end of the shift (as another guy that doesn't strike out).

[Troy Loney]

I'm expecting a 2011-like season. I hope they still add another OF and SP and also just put bae on the damn team as a utility man

I think they plan on giving that Vilade guy from the Rockies a short as the 4th OF and I assume Castillo is the utility man. Since they dumped Newman, Peguero and Cruz are the only short-stops on the 40-man. I think Castillo can play it in a pinch to give Cruz an off day, guess I'm just saying they locked themselves into Castillo unless they sign a short-stop.

Kind of hard to relate this rebuild to how they achieved success in the 2010's. First off, those 2011 and 2012 rosters were really bad. Not sure they have that same capacity to keep the other team by scoring through pitching and defense strategy (as opposed to having talented players) that manifested in full starting in 2013.

If I were to try and label the BC approach, i'd say it's "keep tanking until you land on the right core". So I guess the 2011 piece makes sense cause they are in the how to get to 80 wins phase. Probably too many guys slated for crucial roles on the ML team that can easily go sideways (Cruz, Andujar, Suwinski, Castro, Brubaker, Oviedo) to have any confidence in the quick pivot to .500 team. They do have a strong pipeline forming where they are going to be able to count on farm system contributions each year, unfortunately they all look like complimentary pieces and not building blocks right now (Davis and Johnson having the best shot to emerge as the latter).

[MrKennethTKangaroo]

By 2011 I think we all knew that there was a pretty good chance that Cutch was a legit all star and a potential MVP candidate.

You can make a case that cruz could be that guy, but there are way too many questions about his game at this point to seriously consider Cruz a franchise cornerstone.

They might piecemeal a 500 season without a franchise player, but they won't be a legit contender without one.

[DigitalGypsy66]

I wonder where Cutch will end up this season? Can't believe he's 36 already. Probably should be in the MLB thread, not this one. Unless it's a one-day retire as Pirate signing.

[Troy Loney]

By 2011 I think we all knew that there was a pretty good chance that Cutch was a legit all star and a potential MVP candidate.

You can make a case that cruz could be that guy, but there are way too many questions about his game at this point to seriously consider Cruz a franchise cornerstone.

They might piecemeal a 500 season without a franchise player, but they won't be a legit contender without one.

Definitely no franchise player in the near term. Cruz is definitely not a cornerstone, not really sure how I would like bloc guys together, but he's going to be an impact guy, but not that if you can just extend the inning to, then you're putting runs on the board at a 50% clip (MVP era McCutchen).

I think you can sneak into the playoffs without one. But for a team like this, they'd need the lights out bullpen they used to have with Melancon and Watson.

[King Colby]

Cruz hit at a 35/110 pace in half a season. And that's with an egregious K rate and sub .300 OBP.

And oh by the way his final month (131 PA) OBP was .359 and his K rate dropped from 38% to 29%

You can patch together a .500 lineup around that.

[King Colby]

Hayes will likely be better, Reynolds will be the same, production at 1st, 2nd, C has nowhere to go but up. Starting pitching vastly improved throughout the year. If they can come up with one idiot out of Andujar, suwinski, Mitchell, marcano, etc to provide some production from the outfield and sign even a gamel-level player for the other corner, I don't think 80ish wins is unreasonable at all.

And that's assuming Bae doesn't make the team and play center. Which he probably should because that bat will play at any level.

[Dickie Dunn]

Free Bae

[LeopardLetang]

yeah cruz has a transcendent ceiling still. hayes could easily breakout into a cornerstone piece. and endy could as well especially if he ends up the primary catcher

[skullman80]

Not sure why anyone thinks this is a .500 team next year. They stink and will stink next year.

They deserve zero benefit of the doubt until they prove something.

You have Cruz and Hayes and a bunch of scrubs.

[King Colby]

No

[Troy Loney]

Not sure why anyone thinks this is a .500 team next year. They stink and will stink next year.

They deserve zero benefit of the doubt until they prove something.

You have Cruz and Hayes and a bunch of scrubs.

Product of the 2023 team in line to give at bats to to productive players from 2022. Specifically Cruz, Suwinski and Castro, all positive WAR players that played just about half a season each. And additional 600 - 700 at bats to those guys and not Newman, VanMeter, Tucker, Marisnick, Park, Chang, Tsutsugo, Marcano, Mitchell, just auto improves the 60-win team. They combined for almost 4 WAR in 1011 combined PA, conservatively they combine for 7-8 with full time seasons.

We can presume they will get an actual catcher, and if not, their 2022 breakout prospect will push for playing time at that crucial position. And they have improved at 1B with Choi and Santana. Granted, it would have been nearly impossible to not upgrade at 1B.

They also have some stronger contingency plans for most of these questions marks. As stated earlier, Endy at C should they have another Perez type scenario. Bae and Castillo at 2B if Castro fails. Suwinski and Cruz have power that makes their floors playable, so even if they don't correct the K rates, it won't be a disaster to let those two work it out at the majors. If Andujar flops, they have some guys like Canaan, Swaggerty, Mitchell, Marcano, Gorski, Sabol that they can give a look to.

The rotation kind of stabilized towards the end of the season, Keller, Oviedo and Contreras were giving them consistency, and all three are in line to be in the opening day rotation.

[Troy Loney]

Cruz hit at a 35/110 pace in half a season. And that's with an egregious K rate and sub .300 OBP.

And oh by the way his final month (131 PA) OBP was .359 and his K rate dropped from 38% to 29%

You can patch together a .500 lineup around that.

Moving Cruz to the leadoff spot seemed to really take for him. He's probably not going to get under a 30% K rate, but even getting to 30% would be a 17% improvement.

But, I think these are all arguments that Cruz will hold as a major leaguer, not that he's going to be a guy that carries a team.

Reynolds and Hayes will need to be better, the former just a bit (OPS more like .850), the latter can't be slugging sub .400.

But yeah, I think the lineup will be vastly improved (can't overstate how bad it was at times last year). Pitching staff will have to rely on some question marks and the back end of the bullpen is not there to close out leads in close games beyond Bednar.

[King Colby]

Opening day 2022:
C: Perez, Knapp
IF: yoshi, hayes, Newman, Chavis, tucker, van Meter, Castillo, park
OF: gamel, Reynolds, marisnick
DH: vogelbach

If we consider whatever happens at catcher to be a wash, and no further additions between now and April (unlikely) we're here:

Out: yoshi, Newman, Chavis, tucker, van Meter, park, gamel, marisnick, vogelbach

In: Choi, Santana, Castro, cruz, bae, suwinski, andujar, "vilade", Mitchell

It's pretty significant

[willeyeam]

Pitching is still trash

[robbiestoupe]

Pitching is still trash

Shhh, this is a .500 team

[Troy Loney]

Thinking maybe this guy they got for Newman might be a legit bullpen option. Newman is a legit major leaguer, like a second coming of Clint Barmes or something. So I don't think it was a straight salary dump.

Crow was terrible down the stretch, but also very overworked at the beginning of the year, maybe he's a viable back end reliever. Bednar and De Los Santos missed significant time, maybe they come back decent to start the season. I can be talked into thinking the bullpen isn't a dumpster fire.

The rotation would look significantly better if they would just give Quintana a multi year deal.