Your 2022 Pittsburgh Pirates Baseball Thread

[King Colby]

The pirates handled this situation appropriately and correctly.

The lockout should have resolved this but it didn't. Or really much of anything even

[Troy Loney]

It's a shame we were robbed of two months of Cruz

Said better than I can say:

It baffles me that people don't understand why a team like Pittsburgh won't promote a guy before June, at least as far as the top prospects go.

Say Cruz was up from day 1 this year. Regardless of how he did, we'd be losing him earlier than is now possible by him having been kept in AAA. And of course, that timeline moves even more if he wins/places 2nd in ROTY voting.

Let's assume he is a superstar. If he's that, from opening day, you basically just punted 2 years of control for 2 months of play, on a team that isn't close to contending yet. That's the logic in my head and I am not sure I grasp just how many fans don't understand why the Pirates do what they do.

It's out of necessity, financially, and from a common sense perspective. It sucks. I hate that we're watching a team that is owned by someone who has no real interest in spending money. If Nutting won't open the wallet to at least 100M give or take, there is no real way to argue in favor of having a guy like Cruz on the roster from opening day onward. You simply lose too much value for a few months of maybe great play. And even if you get the great play, what is it worth over 2.5 months? 2 wins? 4?

I don't like what they have done and continue to do, but I do understand the position a GM is in when he knows that service time is worth much more to a team like Pittsburgh, not only as it pertains to having a key player around, longer rather than shorter, but also in terms of leverage when it comes to trades and a player being under control for a longer period of time, which increase the value of your player vs the market.

Everyone knows Cruz was kept down to ensure service time remains in the Pirates favor. Everyone knows it sucks. But most people still go ape **** when a Cruz situation unfolds, despite the history of it happening for the reason I just stated above.

Until our market (Pittsburgh) grows significantly or Nutting sells, we will never see a shift from the current MO as far as service time goes.

https://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/ ... 23/page-97

Not sure this guy knows what he's talking about. you can't "lose two years of control". If that ROY thing had anything to do with this then...we're all **** and need to pick a new team. The years of control were managed by keeping him down through April, that would ensure his first full year isn't reached until next year. So holding him until now was clearly to keep him from being a super two (4 years of arbitration instead of 3). But super 2 doesn't impact his years of control. They kept him down for three additional weeks for no justifiable reason while the team was losing 10 games in a row or whatever that was.

[Morkle]

Counterpoint: I watch the Pirates for entertainment and he's entertaining.


Also, a lot of words to get to the conclusion of Nutting is cheap at the end of it. We knew that

Also let's not pretend that he most likely won't be here that extra year once they realize he won't sign for cheap. I'd bet he's traded in that final year for the next crop, based on how it's gone.

Like, I care zero about asset management like that with this team, considering the last years are usually used to trade with other teams for more players.

[Morkle]

Also I'm kind of tired of this small market nonsense used as an excuse. Spend 100MM on this team and I bet they have better attendance.

[willeyeam]

Counterpoint: I watch the Pirates for entertainment and he's entertaining.


Also, a lot of words to get to the conclusion of Nutting is cheap at the end of it. We knew that

Also let's not pretend that he most likely won't be here that extra year once they realize he won't sign for cheap. I'd bet he's traded in that final year for the next crop, based on how it's gone.

Like, I care zero about asset management like that with this team, considering the last years are usually used to trade with other teams for more players.

No way, this time it will be different.

[faftorial]

Bunch of malcontents ITT.

[willeyeam]

faf, I like you, you're a smart guy. I'm 33, I've seen one playoff series since I was 3 years old. I don't think it's a stretch to think they don't do things the right way and to not give them the benefit of the doubt with personnel matters like this. I get on paper it may be correct, but it's the right way to handle it if you do everything else the right way too, which they don't. So in the end, we get the short end of the stick. Odds are the Pirates are going to be bad. At least give us some entertainment while being bad

[skullman80]

The pirates certainly do not deserve any benefit of the doubt based on their track record. Zilch. Zero. Nada. I'm with ulf and Morkle on this one.

[Troy Loney]

It's also arguably the wrong thing to do.

Super two financial stuff is a good problem to have, that means the guy is performing, and I can get where that is an issue for a prospect like harper or Kris Bryant because those guys are guaranteed studs on day one, Cruz is still very much a wild card.

Also, this season needs to be about getting as many ab's for prospects as possible, they are going going to start getting plundered in the rule V drafts starting next year, and there's rumors that they are looking to move Bednar this deadline. This level of prospect hoarding is getting absurd.

[Morkle]

The prospect hoarding has clearly pointed that there's always tomorrow, never a today. I'd 10000% be fine if they had guys coming up and down and they were bad. I'm pretty fine with what's happening this year minus the Cruz stuff - at least they're seeing what they have, but don't try and nickel and dime me too.

[robbiestoupe]

It's also arguably the wrong thing to do.

Super two financial stuff is a good problem to have, that means the guy is performing, and I can get where that is an issue for a prospect like harper or Kris Bryant because those guys are guaranteed studs on day one, Cruz is still very much a wild card.

Also, this season needs to be about getting as many ab's for prospects as possible, they are going going to start getting plundered in the rule V drafts starting next year, and there's rumors that they are looking to move Bednar this deadline. This level of prospect hoarding is getting absurd.

I agree that the "trading for prospects" charade needs to stop. But they also need to start hitting on these prospects. And not in the "he'll be on the 40 man roster at some point" type of prospect, I mean real impact players.

It seems like this regime suffers from the same fate as the FGMNH regime: they can find the talent, they just cannot develop it. Wake me up when they stop sending out pitchers that turn into studs and they start doing that to other franchises.

[Morkle]

I agree that I think that's been the biggest issue, but it's still relatively early for this regime too. I laugh when they say they want to draft and develop, but really can't develop anyone but the closers they trade for or just happen to find.

[Troy Loney]

I agree that the "trading for prospects" charade needs to stop. But they also need to start hitting on these prospects. And not in the "he'll be on the 40 man roster at some point" type of prospect, I mean real impact players.

It seems like this regime suffers from the same fate as the FGMNH regime: they can find the talent, they just cannot develop it. Wake me up when they stop sending out pitchers that turn into studs and they start doing that to other franchises.

Yeah, I dunno. BC inherited a much better team than NH did, but it was a group that was starting to head towards free agency (for a refresher, the core group for BC was Bell, Marte, Polanco, Musgrove and Taillon. Marte's last year of control was 2021 and Bell, Taillon and Musgrove are all headed to FA this offseason. So I don't disagree with his decision to tear it down. Out of that collection, BC has acquired one starter (Contreras), two reliable BP guys (Crowe and Bednar), one top prospect that should break as a regular (Peguero), and a bunch of dart throw prospects that should have some yield still (Canaan, Escotto, Head, Endy Rodriguez). And BC also inherited Reynolds and Hayes.

The team NH took over had Bay as a legit trade chip and some other guys that were moveable but not valuable (Nady, McClouth, Sanchez, Laroche). NH proceeded to acquire the most eclectic return imaginable, and I don't really know what else to say about it. Hanrahan, Locke and Morton were probably the only pieces that helped much, unless you want to talk about how Karstens helped them linger around .500 longer than usual in the early 2010's.

I think BC has already proven more apt at flipping Major Leaguers for prospects, but all of this is kind of apples to oranges to this point. BC had more value to offer, also, NH had Andrew McCutchen carrying the org on his back to get them to both break their string of sub-500 seasons and their playoff drought. It looks like Nutting gave BC one extra kick the can down the road season than he did NH, I do believe that they have to "try" in 2023, of course that doesn't mean trying in a way that most understand the term, it means no more flipping your veterans.

The development thing is tough, and kind of a loaded word. Was it really a development thing that guys like Cole, Morton and Glasnow became studs when they left and started using more foreign substances? And Musgrove was on the path to where he is now in that last year, his peripherals in 2020 showed a guy on the cusp of putting up great numbers.

Sorry, just a lot of words saying that i don't think we can assess BC until he actually starts trying to win. Personally, I think it's trash he was given 2022 as another "**** it" season. Nickel and diming Cruz during a **** it season with a payroll that is covered by passive revenue (MLB central funds) does not elicit good will or faith in them to do this right. None of these prospects now will touch prime McCutchen, so it's going to take enough of them hitting and spending money on FAs (lest we forget, getting good FA value is where NH turned the Pirates into a contender).

[Morkle]

I legit think there was an issue with pitching development. 1 of those guys panning out makes sense - but that many, that close all breaking out shortly after leaving is very much a red flag, I think.

[robbiestoupe]

Don't really disagree with your post, TL. I know it's early to judge BC and the development process, but it also doesn't appear to be much different. Did they get rid of/hire the right guys? It's amazing how much that has an impact on bringing in legit ML'ers. We have high draft picks and decent trade returns but hardly much to show for it. Yet other teams draft from the bottom of the first round, give away their prospects for ML'ers, yet still bring up guys that have more of an impact. Shrug

[Troy Loney]

Crazy how much publicity this Cruz season debut is getting.

Freaking slate has a long piece calling him the giannis of baseball

[willeyeam]

Reinforcements are coming

[Dickie Dunn]

Can’t wait for all the exciting young players get demoted to make room for those suck ass sons of dodints.

[faftorial]

Release Yoshi, Park, Chang, Vanmeter, etc.

[MR25]

Can’t wait for all the exciting young players get demoted to make room for those suck ass sons of dodints.

Newman will 100% knock Cruz out of the lineup.

[willeyeam]

Can’t wait for all the exciting young players get demoted to make room for those suck ass sons of dodints.

Newman will 100% knock Cruz out of the lineup.

We'll riot

[faftorial]

I don't think he will. He'll spot Cruz occasionally and Cruz will DH or play OF but he won't push Cruz out of the majority of games at SS. He can play 2nd too.

[faftorial]

Newman >> Park at the 2nd.

[willeyeam]

Young Bucs are buzzin

[Troy Loney]

Newman up, Castillo down
Yoshi for madris or Mitchell
Van meter for park

If Cruz is sent down again, need to start sending bomb threats to pnc park