MLB

[Freddy Rumsen]

?

That was sarcasm.

[MWB]

The DH was brought in as a gimmick in the 70's.

The idea has been around since early 1900s because pitchers have always sucked at hitting. As things have become more and more specialized, they’ve gotten worse, but they’ve always been bad.

[willeyeam]

I know but I didn't think it really had much to do with my post

[Troy Loney]

Seemed like a sarcastic emphasis of the point you were making.

[willeyeam]

I wasn't implying that the owners could afford that or do that

[Troy Loney]

I wasn't implying that the owners could afford that or do that

Right, he was sarcastically stating the straw man argument.

[Freddy Rumsen]

It was sarcastic, and basically the morons at the Flagship were making that argument.

[mikey]

Non-baseball guy here, but also bored...has there been no investment (re-investment?) in pitcher hitting development? Like, no one (relatively speaking) has determined that to be a useful skill, particularly for a starting pitcher? Wouldn't a starter see like 7-12 ABs per month or so? That's not worth trying to get on base twice in that span or so...? I know that puckhandling is out as a skill in hockey for the most part (trapezoid, different post integrations, the odd desire to direct pucks out of play for unnecessary in-zone draws, etc.) but still a healthy amount of players come along and still do it well: Smith, Bishop, Jarry, etc. seems like a higher percentage than pitchers that can hit...

Is the sport (like most sports) become too specialized for this skill to be brought back...? I may be wrong, but I thought I remember Tom Glavine being able to hit and that was just in the 90s...(which I guess was a while ago now)...was the DH brought in because pitchers couldn't hit? Or was the DH brought in so pitchers wouldn't hit...?

Hitting is incredibly difficult. As is pitching. To dedicate the amount of time to become a decent hitter would take away your time from pitching, so for most players, it’s not worth it for the 80-100 at-bats a year. There’s also the aspect of injury a pitcher could face when batting/running bases.

Does the aspect of injury from running bases compare to the aspect of injury from (basically) only pitching all the time? That seems like a ton of wear on your shoulder/rotator cuff/elbow/wrist...

I don't know, I'm a guy that thinks sport has become too specialized and would rather prompt more complete development and skill utilization than just go, "man, certain people are bad at that...let's make them not to do it..."

Again, saying this as someone who doesn't know baseball...just thinking aloud...

[faftorial]

So I understand having a contract. But if you play half the amount of games I feel like there should be some pay cut as well right?

I think they want a pay cut because fans won't be in attendance.

Well yeah, less fans, less TV money, less money to pay players.. But I think the simplest way to put it because all of those could possibly be "not my problem" - is you're giving us half the labor as usual, you get less money.

I thought there was an agreement to prorate salary based on games played? And the issue was with no fans being in attendance?

[MWB]

Non-baseball guy here, but also bored...has there been no investment (re-investment?) in pitcher hitting development? Like, no one (relatively speaking) has determined that to be a useful skill, particularly for a starting pitcher? Wouldn't a starter see like 7-12 ABs per month or so? That's not worth trying to get on base twice in that span or so...? I know that puckhandling is out as a skill in hockey for the most part (trapezoid, different post integrations, the odd desire to direct pucks out of play for unnecessary in-zone draws, etc.) but still a healthy amount of players come along and still do it well: Smith, Bishop, Jarry, etc. seems like a higher percentage than pitchers that can hit...

Is the sport (like most sports) become too specialized for this skill to be brought back...? I may be wrong, but I thought I remember Tom Glavine being able to hit and that was just in the 90s...(which I guess was a while ago now)...was the DH brought in because pitchers couldn't hit? Or was the DH brought in so pitchers wouldn't hit...?

Hitting is incredibly difficult. As is pitching. To dedicate the amount of time to become a decent hitter would take away your time from pitching, so for most players, it’s not worth it for the 80-100 at-bats a year. There’s also the aspect of injury a pitcher could face when batting/running bases.

Does the aspect of injury from running bases compare to the aspect of injury from (basically) only pitching all the time? That seems like a ton of wear on your shoulder/rotator cuff/elbow/wrist...

I don't know, I'm a guy that thinks sport has become too specialized and would rather prompt more complete development and skill utilization than just go, "man, certain people are bad at that...let's make them not to do it..."

Again, saying this as someone who doesn't know baseball...just thinking aloud...

A pitcher is certainly much more likely to face an injury caused by pitching; the hitting/running part just adds to the possibility of an injury happening. Think of it this way: you just paid a pitcher $200 million to get wins and strikeouts and be the best pitcher possible. You’re not paying him for any other reason (unless his name is Ohtani). Would you really want him to get hurt tripping over second base?

I agree with you on specialization, both in a specific sport and in sports in general, where kids are encouraged to focus on one thing. But baseball is a bit different. Pitching and hitting are completely distinct parts of the game. It’s not like stickhandling in hockey or dribbling in basketball, which are aspects of the completeness of one's overall ability. People aren’t criticizing a batters ability to pitch, or vice versa, because those skill sets are so unique and separate. If it were a matter or “work harder,” more people would have successfully done it at the mlb level.

[willeyeam]

I see the DH argument through the lens of pitchers suck hitting and everyone knows it, it's boring, but.. managing the NL game with pinch hitters/double switches and managing a bench makes it more strategical than the AL game where there aren't those decisions to be made.

[willeyeam]

So I understand having a contract. But if you play half the amount of games I feel like there should be some pay cut as well right?

I think they want a pay cut because fans won't be in attendance.

Well yeah, less fans, less TV money, less money to pay players.. But I think the simplest way to put it because all of those could possibly be "not my problem" - is you're giving us half the labor as usual, you get less money.

I thought there was an agreement to prorate salary based on games played? And the issue was with no fans being in attendance?

I didn't know they had an agreement on that - that's good. I guess I'd be curious what % of revenues attendance comprised

[MWB]

I see the DH argument through the lens of pitchers suck hitting and everyone knows it, it's boring, but.. managing the NL game with pinch hitters/double switches and managing a bench makes it more strategical than the AL game where there aren't those decisions to be made.

Agree completely with this.

[Freddy Rumsen]

I see the DH argument through the lens of pitchers suck hitting and everyone knows it, it's boring, but.. managing the NL game with pinch hitters/double switches and managing a bench makes it more strategical than the AL game where there aren't those decisions to be made.

Agree completely with this.

[faftorial]

I see the DH argument through the lens of pitchers suck hitting and everyone knows it, it's boring, but.. managing the NL game with pinch hitters/double switches and managing a bench makes it more strategical than the AL game where there aren't those decisions to be made.

[MWB]

IMO, the strategy part gets outweighed by the part where every ninth hitter just sucks, and in some cases doesn’t even try. Certain aspects of strategy are taken away when you know you’ve got a pitcher coming up, so it simplifies things sometimes.

[offsides]

IMHO .... A MLB game is a 4 hour boring (and expensive) time. Especially with the current Pirate team.

[robbiestoupe]

IMO, the strategy part gets outweighed by the part where every ninth hitter just sucks, and in some cases doesn’t even try. Certain aspects of strategy are taken away when you know you’ve got a pitcher coming up, so it simplifies things sometimes.

This is where I am. It's not so much strategy as it is management. No manager has an advantage over another because he's better at pulling the double switch. At least not enough to make a big dent.

Add to the fact that DH should equal less pitching changes as you're not purposefully taking a pitcher out to pinch hit. You could even say that adds to the strategy of the AL where managers have to be smart in putting in a pinch hitter when it makes the most sense. In the NL you're wasting your bench players PH'ing for the pitcher.

[Freddy Rumsen]

Knowing when to double switch was a big problem Clint Hurdle had and most certainly cost the Pirates' games.

[willeyeam]

I see the DH argument through the lens of pitchers suck hitting and everyone knows it, it's boring, but.. managing the NL game with pinch hitters/double switches and managing a bench makes it more strategical than the AL game where there aren't those decisions to be made.

@ me next time Pittsburgh Dad Jr

[willeyeam]

I've seen one proposal where the DH is modified and attached to the player he's hitting for. So when you take the SP out you lose the DH. That would have my attention

[faftorial]

Pittsburgh Dad Jr. should be drummed out of tawn.

[robbiestoupe]

Knowing when to double switch was a big problem Clint Hurdle had and most certainly cost the Pirates' games.

Can't argue with that but one also has to question whether CH had any interest in baseball after 2016

[MrKennethTKangaroo]

One of the small pleasures in baseball is when a starting pitcher is in the game and due up in the next half inning and there is that hope altogether that he keeps it together so the pirates don't have to burn a reliever to get a couple guys out. i dont think suspsenful is the right word, but it is something interesting that happens in the NL and wouldn't happen with the AL

[Freddy Rumsen]

One of the small pleasures in baseball is when a starting pitcher is in the game and due up in the next half inning and there is that hope altogether that he keeps it together so the pirates don't have to burn a reliever to get a couple guys out. i dont think suspsenful is the right word, but it is something interesting that happens in the NL and wouldn't happen with the AL

Yep.

Bench players are basically useless in the AL.