Steelers 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion

Morkle
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Steelers 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion

Postby Morkle » Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:04 am

So here we are...

Few things I think should change into next year:

1) Canada has to go.
2) Offensive line is a 100% must address priority. No going into next year saying this group has grown. Spend money finding dependable lineman. Hire a good line coach.
3) Figure out the QB situation.
4) Figure out the MLB situation, because it's turds.
5) Figure out what Claypool and DJ want to do when they grow up as WRs, because turds now.

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Steelers 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion

Postby willeyeam » Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:23 am

The cap space is a wild card. If they can bring in say, a lineman, MLB, CB, and a little extra DL depth... They could keep things rolling if they get Dotson back to form and draft another OL with a QB. Thing is, there's just a small margin for error when they need to hit on almost all of those holes. But the opportunity is there

Morkle
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Steelers 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion

Postby Morkle » Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:26 am

Yea, they can supplant with FA - but like I said last night, they're not going to be splashy FA hires. I wouldn't mind them signing a vet DL/MLB/OL and drafting another player in the draft.

But yea, OL, DL, LB, Secondary probably in that order for me on draft potential.

Which is why I think this is ultimately a 2-3 year rebuild, because they have to basically hit on everything, and they're still a team that can't match with the elite teams of the league.

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Steelers 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion

Postby willeyeam » Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:27 am

The nice thing is, they're in the rebuild. And still making the playoffs. I don't see them sucking any time soon. Which I'm okay with

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Steelers 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion

Postby willeyeam » Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:28 am

I also think the MLB group looks better if they have Tuitt and Alualu in front of them too

Morkle
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Steelers 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion

Postby Morkle » Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:28 am

I can't see it either, but if they tout this line as a group they're happy with and do anything to barely address it, I'll have to assume they've found a franchise QB in the next draft, because Mason/Haskins may not survive behind it.

Morkle
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Steelers 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion

Postby Morkle » Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:29 am

I also think the MLB group looks better if they have Tuitt and Alualu in front of them too
I don't know if either come back. Isn't Alualu real old? Tuitt? He's basically gone, imo.

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Steelers 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion

Postby Dickie Dunn » Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:39 am

Canada was a mess this year but if they get rid of him they’re just going to internally promote the longest tenured offensive assistant so does it really even matter?

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Steelers 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion

Postby willeyeam » Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:43 am

Canada wasn't good, don't get me wrong. But with a line this bad when there's basically no run threat, I'm not sure any OC is really going to succeed

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Steelers 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion

Postby DigitalGypsy66 » Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:46 am

Alualu is 35 fwiw.

Yeah, they really need to start looking outside of the organization at coordinators etc. No salary cap on any of that. I would hate to see them waste a generational talent like TJ Watt by **** around with a RB coach upjumped to OC. With a bad offense, the defense has to be perfect and spends way too much time on the field.

Morkle
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Steelers 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion

Postby Morkle » Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:46 am

Canada was a mess this year but if they get rid of him they’re just going to internally promote the longest tenured offensive assistant so does it really even matter?
This is largely the problem on why I'll criticise Tomlin. His actual coaching tree is pretty trash, save for 1 coach(Arians?). If he truly has say in who he hires, he needs to be questioned when it comes to Canada, the Line coach, etc. Promoting from within is fine if these guys are bonafide. Canada and the last clown were just there, so they were upgraded.

Canada's resume specifically doesn't point to anything saying he'd have success at the NFL level. Just a bad hire, imo.

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Steelers 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion

Postby meow » Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:55 am

I’ve heard Pickett can play MLB just as well as he plays QB

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Steelers 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion

Postby dodint » Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:56 am

Arians was brought to Pittsburgh by Cowher. Obviously he coached with Tomlin, but if we are talking about choosing outside coaches to bring in that can't be credited to Tomlin.

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Steelers 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion

Postby willeyeam » Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:58 am

Arians worked for a lot of previous coaches, they all get credit for him on their coaching tree

Morkle
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Steelers 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion

Postby Morkle » Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:00 am

I couldn't remember when Arians came in - I just knew he was there with Tomlin.

I have this weird expectation that if you're a coach this long, a sign of success is having a solid coaching lineage, or your teams coordinators being interviewed yearly. Patriots obviously have that - but for how "good" Tomlin has been, that happens nearly none of the time, or infrequently.

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Steelers 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion

Postby Dickie Dunn » Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:03 am

Canada was a mess this year but if they get rid of him they’re just going to internally promote the longest tenured offensive assistant so does it really even matter?
This is largely the problem on why I'll criticise Tomlin. His actual coaching tree is pretty trash, save for 1 coach(Arians?). If he truly has say in who he hires, he needs to be questioned when it comes to Canada, the Line coach, etc. Promoting from within is fine if these guys are bonafide. Canada and the last clown were just there, so they were upgraded.

Canada's resume specifically doesn't point to anything saying he'd have success at the NFL level. Just a bad hire, imo.
I don’t even know that it’s a Tomlin problem. During last season’s postmortem a bunch of stuff came out about the Steelers having the smallest and cheapest coaching staff in the league. The garbage OL coach that left for Oregon for the same job is getting paid more by a college program.

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Steelers 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion

Postby King Colby » Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:09 am

Priority 1 is both lines.

I'd say pencil in Dotson, Moore, and Green, but you need 2 starters.

For DL, Tuitt can't stay on the field and alualu is old as ****. With cam getting up there they need to go find some younger options there. Make a splash here and then maybe still bring back one or both of tuitt and alualu

Torn on Canada. He stunk but was also very limited with a bad QB and worse line. But then again, they were most successful when Ben was calling shots in no-huddle. But then again again, it's easy to be successful in garbage time.

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Steelers 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion

Postby LeopardLetang » Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:24 am

I'd expect a flashy signing actually if the fit is right

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Steelers 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion

Postby willeyeam » Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:31 am

I'm not sure I'd pencil in Green yet. Maybe I'd say pencil in one of Hassenhauer/Green

Morkle
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Steelers 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion

Postby Morkle » Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:31 am

Canada was a mess this year but if they get rid of him they’re just going to internally promote the longest tenured offensive assistant so does it really even matter?
This is largely the problem on why I'll criticise Tomlin. His actual coaching tree is pretty trash, save for 1 coach(Arians?). If he truly has say in who he hires, he needs to be questioned when it comes to Canada, the Line coach, etc. Promoting from within is fine if these guys are bonafide. Canada and the last clown were just there, so they were upgraded.

Canada's resume specifically doesn't point to anything saying he'd have success at the NFL level. Just a bad hire, imo.
I don’t even know that it’s a Tomlin problem. During last season’s postmortem a bunch of stuff came out about the Steelers having the smallest and cheapest coaching staff in the league. The garbage OL coach that left for Oregon for the same job is getting paid more by a college program.
I don't know that it is either. I don't know if he's ever had full control over hiring his coaches. Last I heard - Rooney stepped in to dictate or whatever.

If it's all on him, then his hires have been absolute turds. They could have the cheapest in the league, but they literally shouldn't be doing that going forward. They don't have a HoF QB carrying them.

For the defense. I assumed he's only keeping Butler there to be the fall guy. Every year we hear that Tomlin calls plays a ton, so he's basically the de-facto DC.

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Steelers 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion

Postby Dickie Dunn » Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:44 am

Butler is here for insulation and for the same reason that Fitchner stuck around so long as a terrible OC.

1996 - University of Memphis:
Keith Butler: Defensive ends, linebackers, and special teams coach
Mike Tomlin: Graduate assistant - defensive backs and special teams

1997 - Arkansas State:
Randy Fitchner: Offensive coordinator
Mike Tomlin: Wide receivers coach

1998 - Arkansas State:
Randy Fitchner: Offensive coordinator
Keith Butler: Defensive coordinator and linebackers coach
Mike Tomlin: Defensive backs coach

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Steelers 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion

Postby dodint » Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:16 am

The coaching tree discussion got me thinking a little, so please allow me a meaningless digression on what constitutes a 'Coaching Tree' in the case of Tomlin/Arians.

Arians started NFL coaching in 1988, when Tomlin was 16 years old.
Arians has coached for 8 NFL teams.
Arians coached 8 years in Pittsburgh, 3 under Cowher (WR Coach) and 5 under Tomlin (OC).
Arians won two SBs with Pittsburgh, one under Cowher and one under Tomlin.

Under those facts, I feel like there really isn't a significant entanglement where you can say that Arians is part of a Tomlin coaching tree. Arians time in Pittsburgh was one stop of many and Tomlin didn't bring him to Pittsburgh. Surely not every assistant who coached under a given head coach is part of the 'tree', right? The implication of a tree is that there is a certain mentorship and influence that occurred which propelled the assistant coach to later succeed on their own. Bill Walsh was an innovator and that guy has a real tree. I think if you count Arians under a Tomlin tree, you also have to put Arians under the Butch Davis (Browns, three years) and Chuck Pagano trees. Arians didn't transition to an HC job after working under Tomlin, he had to work under Pagano first and was only elevated there because of Pagano's medical condition.

I can think of a similar case where there is a claim to a coaching tree; Parcells-Belichick. Belichick was hired by Ray Perkins and coached for a few years before Parcells came on board. They won two Super Bowls together and the Belichick immediately became a head coach. They ended up coaching together for three different teams. That's a more significant entanglement.

If you play really loose with the term 'coaching tree' you get stuff like Mike Tomlin being in the Bill Walsh coaching tree:

Image

Anyway, just some thoughts that are not necessarily in opposition to anything said here, I just always took 'coaching tree' to mean a significant influence over the mentee coach and it seems the contacts need to be a lot less significant by other peoples definitions. Surely just being on these same staff shouldn't be enough, IMO.

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Steelers 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion

Postby willeyeam » Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:22 am

I don't disagree, but the way official coaching trees work, Arians is under Tomlin. He's also under Cowher, and others. In any case, whether he's on Tomlins or not, him being the only possible name here after 15 years is not a good thing

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Steelers 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion

Postby dodint » Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:25 am

Do you know where I can find the definition of an official coaching tree? Not being snarky, just the lawyer brain is triggered and would like to see the codified standard. Is it a Football Reference or Elias thing?

I searched for a Tomlin coaching tree and everything I found was that he is in people's trees but doesn't have one of his own.

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Steelers 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion

Postby Morkle » Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:29 am

Great post @dodint - and the point I was trying to make was what @willeyeam posted. 15 years, nobody notable came from Tomlin's team that had success anywhere. It's not a true negative of a bad coach. He wins, he has teams that win, etc. But 15 years, I would expect a foundation across the league for a guy that "wins." And there just isn't anything there. I think when you start discussing his expiration date, etc. That probably should be accounted for.

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