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Pittsburgh Pirates 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion
Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:46 am
by Beveridge
With having a minor league system, there is no reason they can't have some kind of entry level deals like the NHL. Basically make it a punishment to keep someone in the minors for so long. Clock starts ticking as soon as you get drafted and sign your first deal. Build on it from there. Then you aren't playing these games of "gee, I'd like to bring him up but I think he needs 3 weeks of AAA ball to reallllly make sure he's ready for the show."
Pittsburgh Pirates 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion
Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:47 am
by Troy Loney
It just seems like the players are at a major disadvantage in terms of understanding labor supply/demand economics. The current system creates two massively different labor supplies (players under team control and open-market players). Plus you have the whole WAR calculation and other detailed metrics that provide substantive insight on marginal player values. A player outside of team control who does not generate marginal value has almost negative value to a team, because if that player doesn't generate like 1+ WAR over a 500k guy, his salary is costing the team. So that super low pre-arb contract creates that value barrier requires veterans to be that much more valuable than a replacement guy to provide any value to the team.
I think MLB just needs to change the arbitration system into an RFA type setting. that will get players exposed to market values sooner, thus putting the necessary upward pressure on early career players and help balance the pay difference between entry level guys and the vets with incremental values
Pittsburgh Pirates 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion
Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2021 12:32 pm
by King Colby
A lockout would be great for us (as in literally this group of posters). Less games between now and not sucking anymore.
But yeah doing something about the pre-arb service time thing is a slam dunk but has to be done in the context of a salary cap and floor, otherwise teams like the pirates would have absolutely zero chance of ever extending players.
I'm not so sure the PA cares though. Seems like as long as Verlander gets his 25M the rest is gravy.
Pittsburgh Pirates 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion
Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2021 12:38 pm
by King Colby
I love the NHL model and think something similar could work well. Do a 3 year entry level deal, 2 arbitration years, full autonomous free agency after year 5. Raise the league minimum. Allow 2-way deals during the entry level phase.
That gets rid of the bogus super 2 crap, embarrassing pre-arb salaries, and gives players one less year to free agency.
Salary cap - even a soft-ish one - would be required for any of this though.
Pittsburgh Pirates 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion
Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2021 12:47 pm
by robbiestoupe
Just spit balling, but what if they implement a salary cap/floor for the players under team control and let the vets go un-capped? If you lose a player under control because you can't come to a deal, you get compensation pick(s) in the draft. Maybe even tie it to the team that ends up signing the player.
Let Verlander keep his $25M. Teams are winning with the younger players anymore, the vets are mostly overpaid.
Pittsburgh Pirates 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion
Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 7:14 am
by Troy Loney
I can’t make much sense of their protection decisions. Swaggerty and liover were locks, but suwinski and Canaan? And now like 25% of their 40-man are the retreads they picked up at the deadline. I think they lose Thomas for sure, martin is a lose - lose it he gets picked. It’s harder to stash a bat first guy like him. So if he gets taken, he’ll either sink or swim, and if he sinks, he’s probably worthless, but if he is good, then they just lost a power bat. I don’t think Mitchell, Cruz or Bolton are at risk of being taken.
Pittsburgh Pirates 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion
Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 8:00 am
by Dickie Dunn
Yea at the very least leaving Thomas off is weird.
Pittsburgh Pirates 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion
Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:10 am
by King Colby
I dont think any of them are getting taken
Pittsburgh Pirates 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion
Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:11 am
by King Colby
I mean Thomas got shelled in A+ last year
Pittsburgh Pirates 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion
Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:16 am
by Troy Loney
I mean Thomas got shelled in A+ last year
Fangraphs still has him in their top 100. It's not often you get to pluck a high ceiling prospect in the rule V.
Not hard to imagine a tanking team choosing to stash him in their bullpen all year, like the Pirates did with Oviedo last year. So essentially, either he gets plucked, or he stinks and that's why no one is actually going to take him. So, another lose-lose situation.
Pittsburgh Pirates 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion
Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:18 am
by King Colby
I'll agree to that, Twinkle
Pittsburgh Pirates 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion
Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 10:48 am
by LeopardLetang
Yas Queen
Pittsburgh Pirates 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion
Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:19 pm
by willeyeam
Pittsburgh Pirates 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion
Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:21 pm
by King Colby
This year's Tyler Anderson
Pittsburgh Pirates 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion
Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:22 pm
by willeyeam
I'm okay with one or two of those. Get a vet that can eat innings. Maybe he'll turn out okay. But they need starters
Pittsburgh Pirates 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion
Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:24 pm
by King Colby
Yep, and apparently people part with prospects for these guys at the deadline too so
Pittsburgh Pirates 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion
Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:59 pm
by Troy Loney
Guess that answers whether they play on trying at all this year. No.
Pittsburgh Pirates 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion
Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 8:36 pm
by Dickie Dunn
Feels like an eternity since I was pissed we didn’t trade for him.
Pittsburgh Pirates 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion
Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:40 am
by LeopardLetang
That was my thought DD
Pittsburgh Pirates 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion
Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:47 pm
by King Colby
I'm shocked he's only 32. Which means he was like 27 when we wanted him. That makes me even more pissed off.
Pittsburgh Pirates 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion
Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:50 pm
by willeyeam
His last five years were kinda trash though
Pittsburgh Pirates 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion
Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:52 pm
by Troy Loney
https://blogs.fangraphs.com/breaking-do ... -deadline/
An actual relevant take on the 40-man decision. I don't know the roster rules, but I am assuming that there are reasons why you would want to wait to add guys like Thomas to the 40-man. Must have to do with these "options".
The Pittsburgh Pirates also left a lot of interesting players unprotected. Bat-first catcher Abrahan Gutierrez, thumping first baseman Mason Martin, sweet-swinging outfielder Cal Mitchell, strike-throwing lefty Omar Cruz (acquired in the Joe Musgrove deal), and a bevy of young, big-framed arms (Tahnaj Thomas, Eddy Yean, Santiago Florez) were left unprotected. Pittsburgh seems to be consciously avoiding adding raw, but very talented players to their roster after having seen lots of teams burn through two option years to retain the likes of Carlos Vargas, Francisco Morales, and other talented but unpolished players. Those option years are especially relevant for pitching prospects, though the Freudis Nova situation in Houston is a good example of how things can go awry for hitters in this fashion. Raw players are less likely to actually stick with their new team via the Rule 5, and when the draft is flooded with them, it becomes less likely that your young players are the ones who get picked. Pittsburgh did opt to add infielder Liover Peguero and outfielders Canaan Smith-Njigba, Jack Suwinski and Travis Swaggerty.
Pittsburgh Pirates 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion
Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:54 pm
by Dickie Dunn
His last five years were kinda trash though
Turned back into a pumpkin as soon as he was traded.
Pittsburgh Pirates 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion
Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:55 pm
by robbiestoupe
Just get rid of Rule 5 altogether. It only exists because the rich teams ***** that the poor teams were stocking up on young talent. Seems like a "fair" trade for all the rich teams stocking up on real, bona fide talent.
Pittsburgh Pirates 2021-2022 Offseason Discussion
Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:00 pm
by Troy Loney
Just get rid of Rule 5 altogether. It only exists because the rich teams ***** that the poor teams were stocking up on young talent. Seems like a "fair" trade for all the rich teams stocking up on real, bona fide talent.
I think it serves a good purpose, I think it's good that a team can't just stash a player in their minors indefinitely. I think they just need to change the time frame for players signed out of HS and international prospects.