2019-2020 Pittsburgh Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby **willeyeam** » Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:15 pm

We'd need more than Nimmo lol

Postby **faftorial** » Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:15 pm

It still enrages me when people abbreviate Pittsburgh as "Pit", "Pitt", or even worse, "Pitts".

Postby **MrKennethTKangaroo** » Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:15 pm

pirates just need to google it and figure it out

Postby **faftorial** » Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:17 pm

We'd need more than Nimmo lol

I would hope and why would you trade for someone who hit .221 last year? Bring up a minor leaguer.

Postby **iamjs** » Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:37 pm

Postby **shafnutz05** » Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:54 am

Postby **iamjs** » Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:07 am

I agree with you that it's not a fair comparison to compare the Yankees' spending vs the Pirates, but it's more of a comparison of what the Pirates have spent over the last quarter century. That number equates to spending about a hair under 12 million every year since 1995. That still isn't a whole lot of money, not even in 1995 when the average player was making 1.6m.

Nowadays, $12m won't even get you a middle of the rotation pitcher, or at least it won't get you a decent one.

Postby **Troy Loney** » Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:23 am

The next labor negotiations are going to be fascinating. I agree with the sentiment that spending wise, the Pirates aren't measuring up to anyone in the league (except the teams that are playing in an abandoned walmart or a former Roman Colosseum). But the existing structure creates no incentive for teams to spend on mid - tier free agents unless they have no internal options and have a competitive team they need to compliment (granted the Pirates were once in that former category and of course still refused to spend over 100M).

The massive disparity between what players earn in their first six and half years vs their free market earning potential inherently ensures that teams want as many players in those control years as they can get, and that means that everyone has the incentive to spend more on prospects and development than on signing players in the open market. If the players had any sense they would focus exclusively on limiting those initial control years, but at the same time, if the league does anything there, you would see the small and mid market teams then start pushing for a salary cap, which the players are against. It's an interesting three way negotiation, and the players and noone is interested in what's best for the state of the league.

Postby **willeyeam** » Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:29 am

The Pirates are cheap and that's a fact. On the flip side, of those 25 years there were maybe 5 where they were in a position to compete and empty the pocket books. So it's more apples to oranges on top of an apples to oranges comparison. Like this offseason, there's no point in splurging on a FA or two to get to 80 wins instead of 72. Just blow it up

Postby **MrKennethTKangaroo** » Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:30 am

$12 million equates to two john jasos and a Jordan lysles.

or 1 year of carlos corrasco

I mean there are 10 relievers that make $10+ million a year

Postby **robbiestoupe** » Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:38 am

did you google that Kenneth?

Postby **MrKennethTKangaroo** » Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:41 am

i googled it and figured it out

Postby **robbiestoupe** » Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:46 am

you could have been a fine analytics guru under FGMNH

Postby **Dickie Dunn** » Thu Dec 12, 2019 10:26 am

If you added Cole's ridiculous salary to the Pirates 2019 payroll they still would have had a bottom 10 payroll in the league. Their cheapness is as much of a problem as the ridiculous spending capabilities by a handful of teams.

The small market owners like to cry poor and say that the league is unfair, but anytime a salary cap discussion comes up none of them want it. Why? Because a salary cap will come with a cap floor that would require them to spend money. The NHL's cap floor is 74% of the cap, the NFL's is 89%, and the NBA's is 90% (though if we use the tax level the floor is 74%).

MLB's luxury tax kicks in at $208MM for 2019. Say we use that as our new salary cap limit and use the 74% minimum of the NHL and NBA. That puts the salary cap floor at almost $154MM, $16MM more than the league average payroll in 2019. Say we do a hybrid with the NBA model and allow teams to spend to a luxury tax limit of $208MM, which is 121% of the salary cap of $172MM. Now 74% gets us a cap floor of $127MM, a level that 13 teams were below in 2019. Or, let's completely revamp the system and base these numbers off the 2019 average payroll of roughly $140MM, using NBA numbers of approximately 125% to get a salary cap of $175MM and a salary floor of $105MM, a level that 8 teams were under in 2019 and a figure the Pirates have never hit. You think Nutting wants to be told that they're making baseball financials more competitive by forcing him to double his payroll?

Baseballs financials are **** and they're never going to change, but that doesn't the fact that the Pirates spending is disproportionately low compared to the rest of the league.

Postby **MrKennethTKangaroo** » Thu Dec 12, 2019 11:22 am

Baseballs financials are **** and they're never going to change, but that doesn't the fact that the Pirates spending is disproportionately low compared to the rest of the league.

It also doesn't change the fact that marginal investments in relatively affordable commodities (i.e. relief pitching) could have made a substantial difference in the past two seasons

Postby **Freddy Rumsen** » Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:23 pm

Postby **Troy Loney** » Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:09 pm

The prospect goggles they wear over at PirateProspects is too much to take sometimes. I think because of that one time the Brewers took that asian pitcher from the Pirates, that every time you leave a prospect exposed, they'll get selected. Each year, there's a guy that they rank highly that is exposed (usually because of the rules on international players) that they think could get taken. This year it was Lolo Sanchez. There is a caliber of prospect that a team would be willing to stash, but it is absolutely not a guy that has struggled in low-a, and high a in consecutive seasons.

I bought the subscription for 2018 and 19, but cancelled it for 2020.

Postby **LeopardLetang** » Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:38 pm

There's no way anybody thought lolo would get taken

Postby **Troy Loney** » Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:46 pm

Lolo Sanchez, OF – Here’s where the extra roster spot might cost the Pirates a player. Sanchez is not big league ready, or close to it like the previous two players. They could both hold their own in the majors right now, even if they aren’t finished minor league products. If a team takes Sanchez, he would have a role off the bench as a pinch-runner and could replace below average defenders in the outfield late. He still needs a few years before he’s a big league option. Will a team put him in that 26th man role for a year, then let him get the minor league experience he needs? We will find out today. He’s a player who I wouldn’t be surprised if he is picked, but I’d only give him a 50% chance of actually sticking with his new team.

And I said

"Sanchez is at no risk of being taken."

Then the writer made that same point about the 26th man, upside, yada yada yada.

Postby **MrKennethTKangaroo** » Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:51 pm

aren't there like 5 guys identical to lolo sanchez in like every single organization including the pirates

Postby **LeopardLetang** » Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:52 pm

Haha i see. I forgot about the 26th man but there have to be 20 better choices if you just want to stash a defensive athlete.

Postby **Troy Loney** » Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:56 pm

aren't there like 5 guys identical to lolo sanchez in like every single organization including the pirates

Yeah, and plenty of guys will be available in the draft that offer the same profile an you won't have to stash on your major league roster all year. To me it just represents a delusional view of prospects.

Postby **robbiestoupe** » Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:59 pm

In their defense at P2:

1) it is Pirate Prospects
2) what other hopes have the Pirates given us other than to look at the future?

Doesn't explain their manlove for lolol, but this is what you get with the Pirates. How many Pirate blogs/websites out there are truly dedicated to the ML roster? How many Penguins minor league blogs can you find?

Postby **Troy Loney** » Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:59 pm

Their coverage is great, they provide some great insights.

But when they veer in to commentary, it’s amateur hour.

Postby **LeopardLetang** » Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:55 pm

I was fully against subscribing but do so as a gift for my father each year. I enjoy dreker and the lowest level minors stuff. And the trade value WAR stuff which I'm sure i could get elsewhere. Some commentators know about about the business end of the game.

I like wtm's profiles as references to stuff like velocity and pitch grades. So I'm a subscriber. I bought the guide a few days ago but am underwhelmed. I liked the book as a "throne" reference. I amateur rank 100+ prospects based on stats age athleticism and scouting reports and enjoy seeing the drastic differences based on real scouting which is really just this guy is a super athlete and maybe someday if he can play baseball well is talented enough physically to be a pro impact player (Holmes) . So i root for the non athletic guys that put up amazing stats but have no hype. Like DuRapau who unfortunately failed at the mlb level. Still, it's engaging. But Tim Williams has done nothing for me as far as commentary and didn't as far back as onlybucs.com and their fun top 25 voting. He works hard I'm sure but has zero personality that I can enjoy.