Non Political Current Events Thread

[AuthorTony]

For discussion purposes...

I know this is a Libertarian issue, but if we're going with the "the gov. has no reason to be involved in health care" angle, shouldn't we also get the gov. out of education too? If an 8 year old with cancer and poor parents has no right to health care, why should an 8 year old with poor parents get a free education?

[AuthorTony]

https://www.npr.org/2019/08/20/75269555 ... berassault

23 Texas Towns Hit With Ransomware Attack In 'New Front' Of Cyberassault

[dodint]

For discussion purposes...

I know this is a Libertarian issue, but if we're going with the "the gov. has no reason to be involved in health care" angle, shouldn't we also get the gov. out of education too? If an 8 year old with cancer and poor parents has no right to health care, why should an 8 year old with poor parents get a free education?

The cynic in me says education is just glorified babysitting. Keeps parents able to work; keeps most kids from wandering aimlessly during the day and getting into criminal trouble. It serves a certain function that way. Also, education happens at the municipal level whereas these healthcare talks happened at the national level.

If Shaler had a local hospital that I paid for with tax dollars that I could go to for free, and nobody outside of Shaler would be allowed to use it, I might be on board with that. That's the grade school model, anyway.

[count2infinity]

For discussion purposes...

I know this is a Libertarian issue, but if we're going with the "the gov. has no reason to be involved in health care" angle, shouldn't we also get the gov. out of education too? If an 8 year old with cancer and poor parents has no right to health care, why should an 8 year old with poor parents get a free education?

careful... dodint can only get so erect.

[Willie Kool]

If Shaler had a local hospital that I paid for with tax dollars that I could go to for free, and nobody outside of Shaler would be allowed to use it, I might be on board with that. That's the grade school model, anyway.

So communism is OK, if the community is small enough?

[shmenguin]

The cynic in me says education is just glorified babysitting. Keeps parents able to work; keeps most kids from wandering aimlessly during the day and getting into criminal trouble.

channeling your inner skip bayless with these hot takes.

[dodint]

If Shaler had a local hospital that I paid for with tax dollars that I could go to for free, and nobody outside of Shaler would be allowed to use it, I might be on board with that. That's the grade school model, anyway.

So communism is OK, if the community is small enough?

Yeah, totally, get me a Che t-shirt.

I dislike paying federal taxes more than I dislike paying local taxes. I was just illustrating what I thought was an interesting alternative to NHS style systems and the mess we have now.

Envision a complete rewrite of how we do taxes and resource management. The bulk of your tax burden goes to your local municipality, then a smaller portion goes to state, and the smallest to federal. Local governments wouldn't need to rely on funding from above and the stipulations that come with that. Government would resemble the people it actually serves. And we wouldn't, as a country, be able to afford stupid **** like our inflated defense budget. It's nice, imo.

[dodint]

The cynic in me says education is just glorified babysitting. Keeps parents able to work; keeps most kids from wandering aimlessly during the day and getting into criminal trouble.

channeling your inner skip bayless with these hot takes.

I mean, if you want to attribute that clearly tongue and cheek (it was even presented as cynical) position as my only thought on the subject then go for it. It's about as honest as anything else you've done in these discussions.

[Kane]

If Shaler had a local hospital that I paid for with tax dollars that I could go to for free, and nobody outside of Shaler would be allowed to use it, I might be on board with that. That's the grade school model, anyway.

So communism is OK, if the community is small enough?

And we wouldn't, as a country, be able to afford stupid **** like our inflated defense budget. It's nice, imo.

but the mooslims

[Willie Kool]

Local governments wouldn't need to rely on funding from above and the stipulations that come with that. Government would resemble the people it actually serves. And we wouldn't, as a country, be able to afford stupid **** like our inflated defense budget. It's nice, imo.

We already had that. It allowed slavery and Jim Crow, among many other local prejudices, to dominate the minority...

[dodint]

Uh huh.

[shmenguin]

The cynic in me says education is just glorified babysitting. Keeps parents able to work; keeps most kids from wandering aimlessly during the day and getting into criminal trouble.

channeling your inner skip bayless with these hot takes.

I mean, if you want to attribute that clearly tongue and cheek (it was even presented as cynical) position as my only thought on the subject then go for it. It's about as honest as anything else you've done in these discussions.

this has been a bad faith discussion since jump street, where you wanted to steer the conversation into something no one was talking about - and then compounded it with this not obvious at all tongue-in-cheek comment. you don't like taxes because you believe your own personal needs are met without them. that's dandy. doesn't really mesh with the reality of the large majority of the society you live in, but your life is yours. i understand why you feel like you're dragged down by the needs of others.

[tifosi77]

It is also important to remember that we're only having this discussion because our current model of healthcare delivery has only been a thing for one human lifetime. When the great List Of Rights was set forth, it was common for doctors to take payment in trade of goods or services instead of money, and payment was often determined based on the patient's ability to pay. It has only been since WW2, when the patients were largely removed from the price setting equation, that costs have ballooned the way they have. The average patient has no idea what the actual costs of their care are.

And remember also that the bankruptcy bar is a whole lot lower than catastrophic life-threatening illnesses like cancer, and it's not only a thing that happens when the patient is uninsured. In fact, studies show that insured patients are more likely than uninsured to have a medical bankruptcy (in part because the insured person is more likely to seek out costly service, thinking, you know, that their insurance will cover it). I saw another study some time ago that indicated the most common factor in medical bankruptcies was admission to the hospital, for whatever reason; that one factor increased the incidence of bankruptcy in the years thereafter by something like 3x. (Don't quote me on that) Because at that point it's not just cost of care, but also lost wages.

[mikey]

- I don't get shmengin's aggressive "we're not talking about that" stance here...it seems incongruent to what's happening/our desire...
- I don't get tif's back-in-the-day point...we're unwilling - as a whole - to use voluntarism (WK's form of communism?) for "easy" things like homelessness and hunger...how are we going to jump towards offering the services of those in the medical field to treat defective humans...?
- The local government funding -> Jim Crow Laws connection is fascinating in its own right...

[dodint]

this has been a bad faith discussion since jump street, where you wanted to steer the conversation into something no one was talking about -

I asked a question tangential to the discussion. Surely you don't want me starting a new thread every time I wish to express a thought? There is no bad faith here, there is no gotcha, you haven't been had.

- and then compounded it with this not obvious at all tongue-in-cheek comment.

I literally wrote in a parenthetical that it was a cynical comment, I cannot dumb it down any further for you than that. I'm not going to change how I post just because you enjoy mis-characterizing it for your agenda.

you don't like taxes because you believe your own personal needs are met without them. that's dandy. doesn't really mesh with the reality of the large majority of the society you live in, but your life is yours. i understand why you feel like you're dragged down by the needs of others.

I've said in this very discussion that I'd prefer a national health care system. My issue isn't paying taxes; it's the lack of accountability by those who spend the proceeds. You choosing to ignore that to continue your characterization of me as a poster child for 'I got mine, **** off' is your issue, not mine. Your inability to separate the practical from the philosophical discussion is not my problem, but I'm also going to call you on your little mic drop moment because it is completely disingenuous.

[tifosi77]

- I don't get tif's back-in-the-day point...we're unwilling - as a whole - to use voluntarism (WK's form of communism?) for "easy" things like homelessness and hunger...how are we going to jump towards offering the services of those in the medical field to treat defective humans...?

I offer the point merely as a contrast. Our current system is very young, relatively speaking.

[DigitalGypsy66]

I just wish the schools were funded properly enough so the unending fundraisers would stop. Why the **** do I need to buy tissues for my kid's school? Surely, that could come out of an operating budget. And so on and so forth.

Coincidentally, my wife texted me a few hours ago about another fundraiser for a local kid going through cancer treatments. It's the third or fourth such fundraiser that I've been aware of for this poor kid over the last year or so. Car washes and BBQ plates to help play for hospital bills. Man, I don't know.

[shmenguin]

- I don't get shmengin's aggressive "we're not talking about that" stance here...it seems incongruent to what's happening/our desire...

parsing what is/isn't a right is a great thought exercise. it doesn't fit into this discussion. we're talking about re-calibrating social welfare (none of which is a "right"). regardless of the clumsy way he went about it, i don't think dodint's tangent was congruent to what's happening/our desire.

the aggression is in response to an irritating "what basis do you have" question that was posed. the basis is obvious. we live in a society where the government forces us to fund each other's well being, which is a large part of why i still consider this country to be (roughly) the peak of human civilization. it's fine to disagree with this, but do it without using this concept of rights as a deflection.

i also generally don't have patience for libertarians, and whether it's willful or subconscious, I think they have a habit of not characterizing their motives honestly.

[dodint]

I just wish the schools were funded properly enough so the unending fundraisers would stop. Why the **** do I need to buy tissues for my kid's school? Surely, that could come out of an operating budget. And so on and so forth.

Coincidentally, my wife texted me a few hours ago about another fundraiser for a local kid going through cancer treatments. It's the third or fourth such fundraiser that I've been aware of for this poor kid over the last year or so. Car washes and BBQ plates to help play for hospital bills. Man, I don't know.

One of our god-daughters is like that; she has leukemia. Her Dad works for the post office and has a great health plan. But they're still constantly having to fundraise to get everything paid for. It sucks that it takes so long to treat that. My wife's treatment wasn't as prolonged so were were able to pay everything over five years. I think she just made one of her last payments on her double mastectomy.

[Freddy Rumsen]

I just wish the schools were funded properly enough so the unending fundraisers would stop. Why the **** do I need to buy tissues for my kid's school? Surely, that could come out of an operating budget. And so on and so forth.

Coincidentally, my wife texted me a few hours ago about another fundraiser for a local kid going through cancer treatments. It's the third or fourth such fundraiser that I've been aware of for this poor kid over the last year or so. Car washes and BBQ plates to help play for hospital bills. Man, I don't know.

There has been a 117 percent increase in federal spending per student over 30 years ago.

https://www.politifact.com/virginia/sta ... 30-years-/

Why do we need more money? Primarily because the top is bloated with overpaid administrators and assistants and all kinds of unnecessary things, mainly because of one-size-fits-all Federal regulations and largess.

https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-r ... nding.html

[dodint]

Why do we need more money? Primarily because the top is bloated with overpaid administrators and assistants and all kinds of unnecessary things, mainly because of one-size-fits-all Federal regulations and largess.

Yeah, but, the Reconstruction Era, or something.

[shmenguin]

technology expenses, demanding special education requirements, title 1 support, investment in curriculum, improved safety standards...there are a lot of new expenses that are completely legitimate. i'm sure overall bloat is a big component, but schools are simply getting more expensive also.

[CBear3]

"Healthcare is a right" is taking a longer, deeper social welfare argument and parsing it down to a meme/hashtag/sound bite.

So dodint is totally correct that its baseless.

That doesn't mean the discussion for single payer is baseless. The journey to the New World was basically taken to:
1) Let me worship the way I want to
2) Who my ancestors are shouldn't define me and my position in life.

Universal healthcare plays into #2. I lost the genetic lottery, so why should I be forced to endure incredible expenses that the winners don't have to.

[Shyster]

I know this is a Libertarian issue, but if we're going with the "the gov. has no reason to be involved in health care" angle, shouldn't we also get the gov. out of education too? If an 8 year old with cancer and poor parents has no right to health care, why should an 8 year old with poor parents get a free education?

He may be able to get a free education if someone wants to voluntarily fund that education, but he would not be able to demand that others pay for that education against their wills.

So communism is OK, if the community is small enough?

Communism is perfectly fine if people voluntarily agree to be communists. The problem only arises when certain people who are already communists decide that everyone should be communist, regardless of whether they want to be or not, and set out to make sure that everyone becomes a communist—or else.

[Shyster]

But I've never heard a good reason, like on this page. That space was filled with "But 2A" and "what's a right?". Well, those are deflections. What gives a person the right to turn responsibility of their personal health over to the collective? It's just a really odd thing to me.

Nothing gives anyone the right to turn responsibility of their personal health over to the collective. Defining what is a right is a philosophical problem that has admittedly never produced a clear theory of origin or a comprehensive definition. I would say, however, that a right cannot be something that requires another person to act or refrain from acting. The right to free speech doesn't mean that one can force other people to listen, for example.