Non Political Current Events Thread

[mikey]

Get your government to use this then: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/28/1498 ...non-politically, of course - as per the thread title.

It's always been there...but because Big Pharma is so heavily involved in the world of lobbying, your congressmen and women have their collective private parts tied behind their back...

[shmenguin]

You shouldn't go bankrupt just because you got cancer.

yeah but it's ok. the people in this thread are well-insured.

[dodint]

You shouldn't go bankrupt just because you got cancer.

This is a great sentiment.

What is it based in, though? It's certainly not a natural law. And hasn't been the way of life until our lifetime. Do you have any basis for this opinion other than self-preservation and the feel-good feelings it gives you?

[Trip McNeely]

You shouldn't go bankrupt just because you got cancer.

This is a great sentiment.

What is it based in, though? It's certainly not a natural law. And hasn't been the way of life until our lifetime. Do you have any basis for this opinion other than self-preservation and the feel-good feelings it gives you?

You also can’t really compare the cost of medical bills today to any other time previously.

Oh, and when unions were much more prevalent, no one paid for their health care. Not saying it’s right or wrong; it was just what happened

[shmenguin]

You shouldn't go bankrupt just because you got cancer.

This is a great sentiment.

What is it based in, though? It's certainly not a natural law. And hasn't been the way of life until our lifetime. Do you have any basis for this opinion other than self-preservation and the feel-good feelings it gives you?

is this one of your bored trolling thingy's?

[dodint]

You shouldn't go bankrupt just because you got cancer.

This is a great sentiment.

What is it based in, though? It's certainly not a natural law. And hasn't been the way of life until our lifetime. Do you have any basis for this opinion other than self-preservation and the feel-good feelings it gives you?

is this one of your bored trolling thingy's?

No, that's what I was doing before but I've always wondered so the last post was a genuine question. How is affordable healthcare an entitlement or right?

I'm not stating my position. I've just seen it put out there that affordable healthcare is a right and I don't understand who anyone can think that if they spend more than a few minutes thinking it through.

[count2infinity]

I'm not stating my position. I've just seen it put out there that affordable healthcare is a right and I don't understand who anyone can think that if they spend more than a few minutes thinking it through.

Are you saying legally or just as a human being? If the latter, I ask how owning a gun can be considered a right?

[shafnutz05]

I'm not stating my position. I've just seen it put out there that affordable healthcare is a right and I don't understand who anyone can think that if they spend more than a few minutes thinking it through.

Are you saying legally or just as a human being? If the latter, I ask how owning a gun can be considered a right?

I get what you are trying to say, but there's a difference. Taxing the hell out of citizens to give healthcare to all infringes on your right to keep what you earn. A *law-abiding citizen* purchasing a gun with his or her financial capital does not infringe on the rights of others. And if they do use that gun to infringe upon the rights of others, they should be criminally charged. Until you are paying taxes to subsidize the gun purchases of other private citizens, you are comparing apples to oranges here.

Note that I am looking at this as a logical distinction. The emotional argument would obviously see the above paragraph and say, "Well, we *should* be heavily taxed to make that possible".

[dodint]

Put more simply; cancer treatment costs a lot of money. You either have to get service providers to discount their services which disincentivizes people from becoming oncologists. Or you have to spread the cost across the collective; which is the easy button that makes things people want to have but can't afford 'free.' Or in the case of health insurance, a contract an individual enters into, it greatly reduces the cost.

I suppose making that contract compulsory for everyone is unpalatable when we don't have a say in how any of it is administered.

c2i, do you see a difference in being forced to do something v. having a right to something? Being forced to subsidize someone else's 'right' is not the same as having the right to own a gun. To answer your question more directly, the 2A is enumerated. This right to affordable healthcare is new to our generation and not codified in our system. It's not a valid comparison.

[count2infinity]

I suppose my question is what makes anything a right?

[Trip McNeely]

Proposal:

Government gives everyone universal BASIC healthcare (essentially Medicaid). They tax everyone for the cost of paying for it, on somewhat of a sliding scale based on income.

Your company drops health insurance coverage, and you get that money back in your paycheck. Companies can offer secondary insurance as incentive.

Would you do it

[mikey]

You do not have the right to avail yourself to the services of another. Good foundation.

[dodint]

Would I? I'd like an NHS style system rather than dealing with the mess we have now.

My question is philosophical. I'd just like to know "Affordable healthcare is a human right because __________." but I've never seen anything in that empty space that makes any sense. The only way that it works is to take from others (providers or taxpayers) so it better be a really compelling reason.

But I've never heard a good reason, like on this page. That space was filled with "But 2A" and "what's a right?". Well, those are deflections. What gives a person the right to turn responsibility of their personal health over to the collective? It's just a really odd thing to me.

[dodint]

I suppose my question is what makes anything a right?

Practically? The founders made a literal list. And we're free to add to it at any time. That's the space I'm working in.

We can get Guinness in here to talk about the foundation of natural rights if you want to go deep. (Hint: there are none.)

[count2infinity]

Would I? I'd like an NHS style system rather than dealing with the mess we have now.

My question is philosophical. I'd just like to know "Affordable healthcare is a human right because __________." but I've never seen anything in that empty space that makes any sense. The only way that it works is to take from others (providers or taxpayers) so it better be a really compelling reason.

But I've never heard a good reason, like on this page. That space was filled with "But 2A" and "what's a right?". Well, those are deflections. What gives a person the right to turn responsibility of their personal health over to the collective? It's just a really odd thing to me.

Not necessarily a deflection... I'm trying to define the discussion. What makes anything a right? Perhaps by definition, healthcare is not a right. Maybe it is.

[count2infinity]

I suppose my question is what makes anything a right?

Practically? The founders made a literal list. And we're free to add to it at any time. That's the space I'm working in.

We can get Guinness in here to talk about the foundation of natural rights if you want to go deep. (Hint: there are none.)

Well there ya go... logically if you go far enough nothing is a right. You are entitled to nothing. So if nothing is a right, then obviously healthcare is not a right.

If you want to discuss the humanitarian side of providing healthcare to all, we could go that route. But rights has nothing to do with it.

[dodint]

So when people say "healthcare is a right!" it's baseless across all fronts. That's a bit unsatisfying.

[shmenguin]

You shouldn't go bankrupt just because you got cancer.

This is a great sentiment.

What is it based in, though? It's certainly not a natural law. And hasn't been the way of life until our lifetime. Do you have any basis for this opinion other than self-preservation and the feel-good feelings it gives you?

missing from this original statement is the term, "rights". it says you shouldn't go bankrupt because you got cancer. much like, "dodint shouldn't have had to pay for his grade school education".

so what is your question? "do you have any basis" isn't it. you know the basis. were you just trying to shift this into a side point about the semantics of the term "rights"?

[dodint]

so what is your question? "do you have any basis" isn't it. you know the basis. were you just trying to shift this into a side point about the semantics of the term "rights"?

When someone tells me "Healthcare is a right!" I'd like to know if there is anything about that statement that is grounded in anything. Something I could possibly meet them halfway on.

What I hear is "I want healthcare to be a right!".

I see 'healthcare as a right' a form of government taking and I have the luxury of that being a greater philosophical concern than not having healthcare. I'm trying to better understand the other side but I've never heard them express anything other than wants.

Not picking on MR25, genuinely wanted to see if he had anything substantial to back up his statement.

[shmenguin]

so what is your question? "do you have any basis" isn't it. you know the basis. were you just trying to shift this into a side point about the semantics of the term "rights"?

When someone tells me "Healthcare is a right!" I'd like to know if there is anything about that statement that is grounded in anything. Something I could possibly meet them halfway on.

What I hear is "I want healthcare to be a right!".

I see 'healthcare as a right' a form of government taking and I have the luxury of that being a greater philosophical concern than not having healthcare. I'm trying to better understand the other side but I've never heard them express anything other than wants.

Not picking on MR25, genuinely wanted to see if he had anything substantial to back up his statement.

"You shouldn't go bankrupt just because you got cancer." isn't the springboard into this discussion that you want it to be. it's simply a desire to have the government step in. it's not about "rights" in the same way welfare isn't about "rights"

[AuthorTony]

I don't think healthcare is a "right" but I think something needs to be done to reel in costs. There are too many for profit companies out there which are completely taking advantage of the system. A couple years ago my dad was prescribed 2 seldom used chemo drugs. The combined cost was something like $18K per dose. These weren't new or innovative drugs. They're old drugs that were dirt cheap (often used for dogs because the price was so low) and a company bought the rights and jacked up the price by thousands of percents. My dad opted to skip the drugs and try something else, which his oncologist said probably wouldn't work as well.

[dodint]

Except it's a call to change, because if you're uninsured now and you have cancer you're going bankrupt. Particularly in the broader context of the single payer discussion that he was working off of.

The change could be just fixing the current system, but I don't think that's it because being uninsured bones you regardless of how efficient the health care industry is.

[dodint]

If you want to take MR25 off the hook, fine. Scrap everything we talked about and begin again here:

https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog ... chris-dodd

Fighting to improve health care for people in my state of Connecticut and across the country has been a crusade of mine for the last 25 years. The ability to care for yourself and your loved ones and to live a long and healthy life shouldn't be a privilege. In this country, particularly in 2009, it must be a right. You shouldn't have to be well-off to get well.

Why does Chris Dodd, or anyone that shares his opinion, think that healthcare is a right?

[shmenguin]

Except it's a call to change, because if you're uninsured now and you have cancer you're going bankrupt. Particularly in the broader context of the single payer discussion that he was working off of.

The change could be just fixing the current system, but I don't think that's it because being uninsured bones you regardless of how efficient the health care industry is.

you could probably go find a random tweet or something where this is conflated with rights.

a call to change is just that. it's not a constitutional crisis.

edit: there ya go.

[MR25]

because if you're uninsured now and you have cancer you're going bankrupt. Particularly in the broader context of the single payer discussion that he was working off of

Even people who have insurance can go bankrupt trying to pay for cancer treatment.

This isn't an insured vs non-insured thing.

This is a "healthcare costs are extremely prohibitive to a large portion of the population" thing. This is a "cancer is not a pre-existing condition" thing.