Star Wars discussion (SPOILERS INCLUDED)

Postby **nocera** » Mon Jul 18, 2022 4:08 pm

I had to google Fennic Shand. That show (and Fett's appearance in Mando) did not stick with me at all.

Postby **tifosi77** » Mon Jul 18, 2022 4:36 pm

Fennic is a cooler character than what they turned BF into imo.

Postby **nocera** » Fri Jul 22, 2022 2:43 pm

I've never seen the despecialized editions, only poor quality transfers on a 480p DVD and the original VHS versions, so I'm remedying that now. I also just re-watched all of the sequel trilogy on the flight back from London. Having not watched the OT in some time, it's easy to forget how much better ANH is than anything Disney has done.

Postby **tifosi77** » Fri Jul 22, 2022 2:47 pm

Respectfully disagree.

Postby **nocera** » Fri Jul 22, 2022 2:49 pm

Rewatching that sequel trilogy was rough. TLJ and ROS are so messy and completely miss what made TFA a fun return to Star Wars.

Rogue One may come close to Jedi, but ANH and Empire are so far ahead of anything else.

Postby **tifosi77** » Fri Jul 22, 2022 2:57 pm

Respectfully disagree

Postby **nocera** » Fri Jul 22, 2022 3:01 pm

I'm all ears for a counterpoint. What has Disney done that comes close to ANH or Empire?

Postby **tifosi77** » Fri Jul 22, 2022 3:12 pm

You are quite wrong re RO and TLJ. I think both of those films exhibit between them the strongest depictions of the living Force in the entire canon, and are vastly superior to constantly making piles of rocks float and pulling 100,000 ton starships to the ground by waving at them.

RO is by some measure my favorite SW movie, and TLJ is same tier w ESB. However, ROS is as bad as anything in the universe. imo.

Postby **nocera** » Fri Jul 22, 2022 3:15 pm

Woof. I'm wiling to wager that my opinion is much more popular than yours. Having just watched all 3, TLJ is a disaster that completely derailed the sequel trilogy. ROS is trash too, but TLJ lead the way. To put it on the same tier as ESB feels like blasphemy. RO is a good movie, for sure, and I'd put it on ROTJ tier. The problem is I don't find the characters nearly as memorable as anybody in the OT, or ST for that matter.

Postby **eddy** » Fri Jul 22, 2022 3:18 pm

I agree with tif

Postby **nocera** » Fri Jul 22, 2022 3:20 pm

The biggest takeaway from the ST rewatch is it doesn't feel like a trilogy at all. It's so disjointed and every film feels like it's own thing rather than a continuation of the same story.

Postby **tifosi77** » Fri Jul 22, 2022 3:22 pm

I would be interested to hear what exactly about TLJ 'derailed' the trilogy.

Postby **eddy** » Fri Jul 22, 2022 3:24 pm

The biggest takeaway from the ST rewatch is it doesn't feel like a trilogy at all. It's so disjointed and every film feels like it's own thing rather than a continuation of the same story.

I don't disagree with that and it fits with all the issues you heard about making them all.

Postby **nocera** » Fri Jul 22, 2022 3:35 pm

Nearly every story choice Rian Johnson made was done almost in defiance of what was set up in TFA and to sort of undo the storytelling of that first film. And it starts right away with the first scene. You take someone who was actually an intimidating presence in TFA in Hux and transform him to comic relief. And really bad comedy too with the "can you hear me now" cell phone schtick. They tried to recreate the "how does this work, you talk first? I talk first" moment in TFA and it comes off cringy at best. This continues when Luke comedically tosses the lightsaber over his shoulder. And then drinks milk from an aliens tit. Snoke doesn't matter either, by the way. Rey's parentage is answered (and then retconned) for no real reason. The entire casino planet segment is a mess and I get that he's trying to make some sort of point but it's muddied and unclear. But hey, a kid picked up a broom with the force so that's neat and never mentioned again. Holdo is a horrible character and after Leia went full frozen Mary Poppins should've just told Poe her plan instead of hiding it for some reason.

I understand liking how the force was handled in TLJ, but that doesn't mean it was a good movie and it ESPECIALLY wasn't a good second movie of a trilogy.

Rian Johnson would definitely be a "no, but" person in the improv class.

Postby **MrKennethTKangaroo** » Fri Jul 22, 2022 3:48 pm

TFA was fun

The other two? Not fun

Postby **DigitalGypsy66** » Fri Jul 22, 2022 3:53 pm

I could (and probably should soon) watch Rogue One anytime. OT, yes. The prequels weren't as bad as I remembered when I watched them a few years ago, but no hurry to watch them again. TFA was fine, and watched that a couple of times since the theater. The thrill of seeing the Falcon again, Chewbacca, Han Solo, and others...was great. Fan service to be sure. I have no interest in seeing the other two for a while. Life's too short, and I enjoyed them in the theater at the time.

Postby **CBear3** » Fri Jul 22, 2022 4:08 pm

TLJ would have been a really cool if it was two separate movies. One that actually dealt with the Skywalker Saga and then a totally different movie with the message from Canto Bight about privilege and the force being out there that anybody could seemingly tap into.

As presented though, it was just as disjointed as ROS with a slightly more believable/convincing tilt.

Postby **nocera** » Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:20 am

The de-specialized versions are really great, btw. It's crazy that Disney still hasn't put out a decent version of the theatrical cuts. Disney loves money. Let me give you my money, damnit.

And I did some research and it looks like I need to download Project 4K77 (and 80 and 83).

Postby **nocera** » Mon Jul 25, 2022 1:36 pm

I know this is a few days old now but holy **** this looks awesome.

Postby **tifosi77** » Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:51 pm

I do intend to respond to your TLJ comments, nocera. I'm just too punchy to formulate the paragraphs at the moment. For now, suffice it to say that while I agree with certain individual critiques I do not share your overall conclusions.

Postby **tifosi77** » Tue Jul 26, 2022 5:21 pm

First, let me get some housekeeping out of the way.

Things I disliked about TLJ:
- Mary Poppins Leia was this close to being a deal breaker for me, but within 5 minutes I wasn't thinking about it. (This ended up being a positive in the moment, but was sort of undone w Ep IX........ which will be a common refrain in these remarks)
- Captain Phasma & DJ: Both felt underserved by their contributions here, but in DJ's case I think there's an actual purpose at play.

Honestly, the main thing I dislike about The Last Jedi are people's complaints about it.

Postby **tifosi77** » Tue Jul 26, 2022 5:22 pm

Nearly every story choice Rian Johnson made was done almost in defiance of what was set up in TFA and to sort of undo the storytelling of that first film. And it starts right away with the first scene. You take someone who was actually an intimidating presence in TFA in Hux and transform him to comic relief. And really bad comedy too with the "can you hear me now" cell phone schtick. They tried to recreate the "how does this work, you talk first? I talk first" moment in TFA and it comes off cringy at best. This continues when Luke comedically tosses the lightsaber over his shoulder. And then drinks milk from an aliens tit. Snoke doesn't matter either, by the way. Rey's parentage is answered (and then retconned) for no real reason. The entire casino planet segment is a mess and I get that he's trying to make some sort of point but it's muddied and unclear. But hey, a kid picked up a broom with the force so that's neat and never mentioned again. Holdo is a horrible character and after Leia went full frozen Mary Poppins should've just told Poe her plan instead of hiding it for some reason.

- Hux is portrayed exactly how he came off to me in TFA. He was not scary, he was a clown; he was a bureaucrat's idea of villainy, and I commend Gleeson and the directors for committing to that bit. Honestly, "I'm the spy!" was one of the few moments in IX that I genuinely liked specifically because of this camp.
- Snoke's story purpose was to be killed (by Kylo Ren), in the middle installment, to show that Ren is further gone than Vader was. Ren did something Vader never could, he slayed his master and became the captain now. That's a concession to knowing who Kylo Ren is, where - and who - he comes from, so he must face a greater challenge to redemption. "We don't know anything about Snoke"......... so what. The Emperor is referenced (obliquely) I think exactly two times in the first SW movie and didn't even appear on screen, and was only a hologram in 2 scenes in the second movie.
- Rey's parentage should have stayed that she was a nobody. "Somehow Palpatine returned" shall live in infamy as one of the laziest, studpiest, and most unnecessary self-retcons in cinema history, and was done solely in response to fan backlash. (It also happened in Ep IX, not VIII.)
- I do not share your take that the Cato Bight sequence is muddled and unclear. What is unfortunate is that the story threads that were set up by that sequence and the entire character of DJ were cast aside following backlash to Ep VIII; if I'm not mistaken, the combination of the blurred lines between good guys and bad guys was meant to be the central plot of Johnson's own trilogy suite, and I think that would be an excellent basis for a SW story for grown ups. The Force is an energy field created by all living things (luminous beings, are we), and Rogue One and TLJ are really the only films in the entire canon that have explored that to date. And that smearing of who determines the difference between 'good' and 'bad' is what I loved so much about RO, and what promises to be at the heart of the Andor series on D+.
- Kid w broom - "never mentioned again" because it was literally the last scene of the movie. Any fault in not picking up that thread lays with subsequent storytelling. (And in part why Ep IX is so abysmal) But to that point, Broom Kid is symbolic of the entire POV they went into the ST with in terms of the nature of the Force. Finn is a nameless Stormtrooper whose anonymity is underscored by the fact that he was a garbage compactor guy (they introduce and discard his connection to the Force in the space of around 50 minutes of screen time in Ep IX, shameful); Rey is a nobody from Jakuu (to have her nobody-ness confirmed by Kylo Ren was an emotional gut punch, and perfect for the story imo); Broom Kid is an abused slave; the heroes in Rogue One aren't Force-wielders; and yet the Force is everywhere. Even the sidekicks are sort of nobodies; Rose is like a mechanic or something, for example.

Holdo is a horrible character and after Leia went full frozen Mary Poppins should've just told Poe her plan instead of hiding it for some reason.

Congratulations! You are the screenwriter of Star Wars: Episode VII. Poe knows 'the plan'............... now what? What do you do with him? Does he sign on to 'the plan'? Does he become an obstacle? How does he learn the difference between sacrifice and living to fight another day, and knowing which is necessary and when, if he's in on 'the plan'? How does Poe become a leader, now that he knows 'the plan'? How do you then draw that contrast with Luke's actions later in the story, and with Finn's initial inability to learn the same lesson?
- Leia being Force sensitive was always meant to feature in the films. I'm sure it was going to be a rather different exploration in Ep IX if Carrie Fisher was still around, but she wasn't and so we got what we got. Mary Poppins was bad, but nearly as lamentable imo as Force users dragging starships out of the sky and tearing them apart with their minds. The Force is a connection to life, not magic. It bothers me where they've taken the Force since Ep VIII (I don't want Harry Potter: In Space!), and I wonder if that's at least somewhat in part owing to fan backlash.

Rian Johnson would definitely be a "no, but" person in the improv class.

Johnson quite overtly "yes, and" the hell out of his movie. It was the response to his contribution that was "no, but". [First four words of opening crawl to TFA] "Luke Skywalker has vanished." [Johnson]Yes, and he did so because he repeated the same hubristic mistakes of the Jedi Council before him, and similarly unleashed hell. So he removed himself from the Force - like his masters Kenobi and Yoda before him - to protect the galaxy from his potentially malign influence. And it took encountering a nobody from Jakuu to unlock the wisdom that was dormant within him, and give him the courage to reconnect and play a part in saving the Light. [Audience and Mark Hamill]"No, but Luke is a hero!"

Heroes make mistakes. They learn from them. Luke has no arc through the OT, he is exactly the same - as a character - when we meet him whinging about Tosche Station as he is when he chucks his lightsaber aside and declares himself a Jedi before the Emperor.... he found his place. This time, when he chucks his saber aside on that island with the space penguins, he does so because he lost his place and needs to find his way back. Through the sequels, he learns to overcome fallibility, not just his own but of thousands of generations of Jedi, and I think it makes Luke a significantly more compelling hero. I never particularly liked Luke in the OT. He is now one of my favorites.

Postby **tifosi77** » Tue Jul 26, 2022 6:46 pm

Also, if you want to stand on the "I'm wiling to wager that my opinion is much more popular than yours" leg and cast your lot with the people who think the Holdo Maneuver ruins space battles because why not just do that all the time, then I don't really think you've thought your point through.

Postby **nocera** » Wed Jul 27, 2022 9:46 am

The Holdo Maneuver is one of the few things I liked about TLJ. Your thoughts are well said and I understand your point of view, even though I don't agree with most of it. TLJ, for me, is simply not a fun experience. Similar to the prequels, any scene that I do enjoy is followed closely by something so bad that it completely does away with any of the goodwill the previous scene had earned. It's a constant cycle of a cool pod race followed by Jar Jar stepping in poop, or an awesome space battle taking down a Dreadnought followed by Luke **** Skywalker milking an alien's tit. Despite my feelings for it, I'm genuinely glad that people enjoy it. It's just another part of Star Wars that isn't for me, I guess.

The sequel trilogy follows the same path as the Jurassic World franchise. A fun first movie that reminds you of why you loved the original, a weird dark middle that takes the series in a direction that doesn't excite me at all, then a disaster of a finale.

Postby **meow** » Wed Jul 27, 2022 10:35 am

Yikes. Colossal bad takes here. TLJ is an absolute tire fire and a garbage movie.