2019 Pittsburgh Pirates Season Thread

Morkle
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2019 Pittsburgh Pirates Season Thread

Postby Morkle » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:57 am

I think for the first time in my Pirates fandom history, I'm ready for the Pirates to blow it up and enter a full rebuild, with a new coach, farm system, front-office, everything.

This group can't develop young players really well, and if you're gonna give us the nickel and dime defense all the time, you better sure as **** be the best drafting and development team out there, which they aren't, and aren't even near top 10 in, imo.

MrKennethTKangaroo
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2019 Pittsburgh Pirates Season Thread

Postby MrKennethTKangaroo » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:08 am

I think their "fastball academy" outlook is just blowing up in their face this year.

Keller can't throw his curveball for a strike, so hitters can just sit on the fastball.

Williams is fine, and I think Taillon will be ok going forward. I also think that Musgrove and Archer will be at least average once Searage and Hurdle are fired (which god only knows how they survive this season). So this leaves them the task of bringing in some veteran pirchers this offseason. Not Keuchel level, but Wade Miley depth-level guys.
on a macro scale, the fastball academy has been an unmitigated disaster.

the best picher drafteed by the pirates in the gmnh era was cole, and as time passes, it is more and more apparent that cole was mishandled here

the second best pitcher has been Taillon. I think it is safe to say that Taillon has been hampered more by injuries than by pitching philosophy. Then again, didn't he dodint after a start last season about pitch mix? And after that, didn't he change for the better?

beyond those two guys, who were obviously drafted extremely high, the fastball academy has been a dud. it didn't work with glasnow. it didn't work with the 2009 draft class of Von Rosenberg, Brooks Pounders, Phil Irwin, Vic Black draft class. it didn't work with kingham. imo it doesn't work.

Troy Loney
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2019 Pittsburgh Pirates Season Thread

Postby Troy Loney » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:24 am

I don't think, developmentally, the Pirates messed up Glasnow and Cole. I think they are over reliant on analytics for pitch selection and such. It wasn't like the Rays or Astros had to change the mechanics for Cole and Glasnow, they just went there and threw different pitches. I think Hurdle and Searage only have one way of employing their pitchers and they never really adapted to when the umpires stopped calling the low strikes. They have probably changed their approach, and I don't know what their approach is right now, but whatever it is, everyone sucks. I think they just have to dump Searage, right now if possible, and bring in a fresh face that can look at what's going on, and be like, "you know how you keep poking your eyeball with that needle, you should stop doing that".

Dickie Dunn
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2019 Pittsburgh Pirates Season Thread

Postby Dickie Dunn » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:24 am

The annoying thing about their fastball academy approach is that it's not a bad strategy for reclamation projects, for which they've had a good success rate. Bring in a veteran guy you has multiple pitches, refine his fastball command so he has a better primary pitch to work off, maybe improve delivery for some guys so they've got a fastball and changeup coming from the same arm slot and boom, you've got yourself an improved major league pitcher. 60% of the time, it works every time.

When you use that approach for a prospect you get a scrub ass pitching machine who is trying to learn new pitches in AAA and is completely unprepared for the next step in their career. **** dumb.

Dickie Dunn is Concerned About our Top Prospects:

- Mitch Keller: **** hell.
- Ke'Bryan Hayes: Didn't play last night.
- Travis Swaggerty: 0 for 3 with 3 Ks last night. He has 3 hits and 14 Ks in his last 10 games. 123/219/193/412 in June.
- Oneil Cruz: Still injured!
- Kevin Kramer: 0 for 4 with 3 Ks last night. 265/347/439/786 for the season. I think he ends up as nothing more than a AAAA player.

robbiestoupe
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2019 Pittsburgh Pirates Season Thread

Postby robbiestoupe » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:31 am

I think for the first time in my Pirates fandom history, I'm ready for the Pirates to blow it up and enter a full rebuild, with a new coach, farm system, front-office, everything.

This group can't develop young players really well, and if you're gonna give us the nickel and dime defense all the time, you better sure as **** be the best drafting and development team out there, which they aren't, and aren't even near top 10 in, imo.
Welcome aboard

Troy Loney
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2019 Pittsburgh Pirates Season Thread

Postby Troy Loney » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:48 am


- Kevin Kramer: 0 for 4 with 3 Ks last night. 265/347/439/786 for the season. I think he ends up as nothing more than a AAAA player.
Yeah, looks like he hasn't recovered from that disastrous MLB debut. But, Newman looked completely overmatched last year and has come back much better. Newman is at around 160 at bats and has basically reached his ceiling (no power, .300 hitting shortstop with low K %).

I'm not sure how Frazier hangs around much longer. His defense was always questionable, and if the bat isn't pulling that up, he serves no purpose, so Kramer could overtake Frazier, then they'd probably just move Newman to 2B then. But of course Newman has no value as a 2B, so it is also not a great scenario where Frazier and Kramer have both flopped, and your stuck with a Newman/Tucker middle infield with Moran and Gonzalez on the bench.

Also bad news that Polanco is back to disaster mode. They need to figure that out asap.

Dickie Dunn
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2019 Pittsburgh Pirates Season Thread

Postby Dickie Dunn » Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:06 am

I think their "fastball academy" outlook is just blowing up in their face this year.

Keller can't throw his curveball for a strike, so hitters can just sit on the fastball.

Williams is fine, and I think Taillon will be ok going forward. I also think that Musgrove and Archer will be at least average once Searage and Hurdle are fired (which god only knows how they survive this season). So this leaves them the task of bringing in some veteran pirchers this offseason. Not Keuchel level, but Wade Miley depth-level guys.
on a macro scale, the fastball academy has been an unmitigated disaster.

the best picher drafteed by the pirates in the gmnh era was cole, and as time passes, it is more and more apparent that cole was mishandled here

the second best pitcher has been Taillon. I think it is safe to say that Taillon has been hampered more by injuries than by pitching philosophy. Then again, didn't he dodint after a start last season about pitch mix? And after that, didn't he change for the better?

beyond those two guys, who were obviously drafted extremely high, the fastball academy has been a dud. it didn't work with glasnow. it didn't work with the 2009 draft class of Von Rosenberg, Brooks Pounders, Phil Irwin, Vic Black draft class. it didn't work with kingham. imo it doesn't work.
Cole came out of UCLA and already had three pitches (four-seam, slider, changeup). He added a curve in the minors and the Pirates forced him to throw a two-seam fastball that he now rarely uses and has been a better pitcher since he left. Taillon's draft profile says he has a four-seamer, slider, curve, and a seldom used change-up. Like all Pirates prospects he was forced to throw a two-seam fastball and had dumped the slider until the end of May last year when he publically ***** about pitch mix. He also took it upon himself to start throwing the slider again. He's been hampered by injuries, but realistically he also hasn't been great in his career, especially for a guy drafted between Harper and Machado. A rough first half in 2016 (only 5 games) was offset by a much better second half; he was not good in 2017, he had some rough outings last year but overall had a very good year and finished 17th in pitcher WAR, and this season he was off to an inconsistent start before being injured forever. Williams was another fairly developed college guy and had already reached AAA in the Marlins system before coming to the Pirates, so they didn't have a whole lot of time to **** with him.

Those three guys never came up and threw their four-seam fastball with the frequency that Glasnow and Keller have. Cole peaked at 54% in 2014 and was at 41% in his rookie year and Williams was at 49% in his rookie year and the usage this year (56.6%) has been his highest to date. Taillon uses a greater mix of four-seam and two-seam, but his highest four-seam was last year at 35.2% and his rookie year he was throwing his two-seam fastball 38% of the time.

Comparatively, Glasnow threw his four-seam fastball 62.3% of the time in 2016, 39.4% in 2017 when they forced the two-seam down his throat until he came back in September and threw the four-seam 62.4% and has never thrown a two-seam fastball since, 70.5% in 2018, and now with the Rays he's at 64.3% in 2019 but it's now way up in the zone. Keller is currently throwing his four-seam fastball 64.3% of the time. Brooks Baseball also has very limited minor league data for Glasnow and Keller, with Glasnow throwing his four-seam fastball 67.7% of the time in 2014 and Keller throwing his 71.1% of the time in 2017.

In my nearly professional opinion, all of that really paints the entire picture. Cole and Williams were college guys with developed pitches and Taillon was an advanced high school pitcher who already had a good pitch mix. Glasnow and Keller were more raw and the Pirates worked their fastball academy on them, having them throw fastballs 70+% of the time in the minors and not work on secondary pitches. They get called up to MLB and simply aren't ready because they only have one reliable pitch, management knows that and has them throw that pitch way too frequently and they proceed to get shelled for eternity. Glasnow of course gets the added negative of being forced to work down in the zone where he's not comfortable. I'm waiting to hear that Searage has decided to have Keller start throwing a two-seam fastball.

Dickie Dunn
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2019 Pittsburgh Pirates Season Thread

Postby Dickie Dunn » Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:15 am


- Kevin Kramer: 0 for 4 with 3 Ks last night. 265/347/439/786 for the season. I think he ends up as nothing more than a AAAA player.
Yeah, looks like he hasn't recovered from that disastrous MLB debut. But, Newman looked completely overmatched last year and has come back much better. Newman is at around 160 at bats and has basically reached his ceiling (no power, .300 hitting shortstop with low K %).

I'm not sure how Frazier hangs around much longer. His defense was always questionable, and if the bat isn't pulling that up, he serves no purpose, so Kramer could overtake Frazier, then they'd probably just move Newman to 2B then. But of course Newman has no value as a 2B, so it is also not a great scenario where Frazier and Kramer have both flopped, and your stuck with a Newman/Tucker middle infield with Moran and Gonzalez on the bench.

Also bad news that Polanco is back to disaster mode. They need to figure that out asap.
In my wildest of pipe dreams I can see a scenario where Moran continues to develop into a useful 3B and the Pirates future infield ends up as: Moran-Tucker-Hayes-Bell, with Newman as the backup middle infielder, Hayes moving to 3B when Moran needs to be platooned, and Will Craig on the bench as backup 1B/RF/pinch-hitter. I'd like to see Kramer develop into something because he has some pop in his bat that Newman is completely missing, but I just don't see it happening. His power numbers are down from last year and he's still striking out a ton in AAA. I think the next time he's in MLB he's just gonna come up and swing at everything like he does in AAA and will end up with the same middling results.

Polanco sucks. His career has been a massive disappointment and waste of talent and you can sure as hell bet that GMNH regrets pulling the trigger early on the contract extension that he's never earned. He can't figure **** out for more than a month at a time, his swing is more inconsistent than my golf swing, and he still looks like he's never received fielding instruction before.

LeopardLetang
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2019 Pittsburgh Pirates Season Thread

Postby LeopardLetang » Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:25 am

May 25g 84ab 9doubles 4hr 21rbi 13bb 19k .310 .398 .560 .957

kramer had a good may so i wouldn't blame this year on not recovering from the dreadful 37ab with 20k last year in the majors. but if he lets this poor june last into july he'll be digging himself a deep hole. after his may he was looking like he would get a call up this year. but now that newman found a footing and he's dragging he's in trouble.

MrKennethTKangaroo
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2019 Pittsburgh Pirates Season Thread

Postby MrKennethTKangaroo » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:16 am

i approve of this vigorous and anger-based discussion today

Troy Loney
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2019 Pittsburgh Pirates Season Thread

Postby Troy Loney » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:22 am

i approve of this vigorous and anger-based discussion today
It's justified.

For them to have given up the third most runs in all of baseball, playing in an NL, pitching friendly park, all while accepting an intolerable amount of pitching depth risk entering the season (basically by just assuming that pre-arb players could handle like 80% of the team's innings throughout the year)

LeopardLetang
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2019 Pittsburgh Pirates Season Thread

Postby LeopardLetang » Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:04 pm

Yes, I'm on board. The payroll was inexcusable. Payroll at that level is excusable during a rebuild and IF you're willing to go up to the 130 range during a window for a period of say 3 years. Which they haven't shown they will. And I can understand that this year wasn't a big go for it year, but it was easily a keep payroll low and smart but add enough depth to make a wild card run feasible. They didn't, and just because injuries are so bad that it wouldn't have mattered shouldn't get them off the hook.

Morkle
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2019 Pittsburgh Pirates Season Thread

Postby Morkle » Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:25 pm

It's gonna be interesting when they come to the city asking for funds to rehabilitate the ball-park.

Dickie Dunn
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2019 Pittsburgh Pirates Season Thread

Postby Dickie Dunn » Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:31 pm

Hopefully the city saying "No" will be the catalyst for Nutting selling.

willeyeam
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2019 Pittsburgh Pirates Season Thread

Postby willeyeam » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:00 pm

Would love if they city signed off under the condition there is a new owner

Morkle
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2019 Pittsburgh Pirates Season Thread

Postby Morkle » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:17 pm

I would be very much against increasing any tax or using any funds helping him.

Factorial
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2019 Pittsburgh Pirates Season Thread

Postby Factorial » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:22 pm

Would love if they city signed off under the condition there is a new owner
:thumb:

NailedPenguin
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2019 Pittsburgh Pirates Season Thread

Postby NailedPenguin » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:02 pm

49 pitches in, 7-1 Detroit. Going great.

Gaucho
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2019 Pittsburgh Pirates Season Thread

Postby Gaucho » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:04 pm

Image

Dickie Dunn
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2019 Pittsburgh Pirates Season Thread

Postby Dickie Dunn » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:26 pm

**** hell

MrKennethTKangaroo
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2019 Pittsburgh Pirates Season Thread

Postby MrKennethTKangaroo » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:56 pm

Now Greg brown is worrying about Williams being hurt. Perhaps the worry should be that he pitched like crap and yet again we have to be subjected to rich rodriguez

willeyeam
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2019 Pittsburgh Pirates Season Thread

Postby willeyeam » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:04 pm

This is fine

willeyeam
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2019 Pittsburgh Pirates Season Thread

Postby willeyeam » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:16 pm

Let's go!!! Championship

MrKennethTKangaroo
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2019 Pittsburgh Pirates Season Thread

Postby MrKennethTKangaroo » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:27 pm

Just think, if Lonnie chisenall was healthy (lol right?), Reynolds never would have seen PNC park

willeyeam
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2019 Pittsburgh Pirates Season Thread

Postby willeyeam » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:33 pm

A looot of things had to happen to see Reynolds. Starting with trading Meadows, really

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