Military Affairs & History

[Shyster]

Speaking of anniversaries, it's the 75th anniversary of the Battle of Midway, which I would call the most strategically significant battle of modern history. I think only maybe Trafalgar would rival Midway in terms of overall importance when it comes to recent history (I would say the 480 BC Battle of Salamis was probably the most significant naval battle in all human history). On the morning of June 4, 1942, the Japanese were more than holding their own and were still expanding. By 9:00 a.m. the following morning, which is when the abandoned and burning Hiryū finally joined the Akagi, Kaga, and Sōryū at the bottom of the Pacific, the Japanese were on an inexorable path to defeat.

[tifosi77]

I assert that the Battle of the Coral Sea was actually more significant.

For starters, it was the first naval engagement in history in which the combatant ships were never within visual contact. So it was historical the moment the battle was joined. Second, while the Japanese claimed a victory on the day(s), it was actually this engagement which halted the Japanese expansion in the Pacific; upon having their noses bloodied by the Allies so soon* following Pearl Harbor, the Japanese were forced to reconsider their plans to invade New Guinea. And the order of battle at Midway was determined by the outcome in the Coral Sea, tipping the scales in favor of the good guys.





* Coral Sea was also prophetic, as Admiral Yamamoto Isoroku had declared in delivering his plans to attack American naval installations in the Pacific, "I shall run wild considerably for the first six months or a year, but I have utterly no confidence for the second and third years." The Battle of the Coral Sea took place six months to the day after Pearl Harbor.

[Shyster]

I think I must disagree. I agree that Coral Sea was the first meaningful check on the Japanese expansion in the Pacific, but it left the Japanese fleet mostly intact. True, the Fifth Carrier division (Shōkaku and Zuikaku) was taken out of action and couldn't participate in Midway, but the rest of the fleet (which was numerically superior to what the U.S. could muster) was intact. After Midway, however, the IJN was in tatters.

I think it was also more significant in terms of the stakes. The Japanese intended to use Midway as a lure to trap and destroy the U.S. carriers. If that plan had gone off and the U.S. suffered losses comparable to what the Japanese suffered (i.e., the loss of all three ships of the Yorktown class), it would have left the United States with only the Saratoga in the Pacific and more than six months to go before the first of the Essex class entered service. Even the first of the stopgap Independence class of light carriers wasn't commissioned until January 1943. The IJN could have wrecked a lot of sh*t in the latter half of 1942 with only the Saratoga and maybe Wasp to stand in their way.

[shafnutz05]

to the last three posts. I actually lean towards Midway, but Coral Sea is a close second IMO.

[shafnutz05]

A day late on this, but some awesome colorized photos from D-Day.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... dings.html

[DigitalGypsy66]

James Hornfischer shared this article on Twitter this morning: What if we had lost the Battle of Midway?

http://us11.campaign-archive2.com/?e=ef ... dbec0cd72f

[tifosi77]

Every time I see images from Omaha Beach, the same thoughts pop in my head:

1) Who the heck picked that location?

And

2) How the hell did they pull that off???

[Shyster]

James Hornfischer shared this article on Twitter this morning: What if we had lost the Battle of Midway?

http://us11.campaign-archive2.com/?e=ef ... dbec0cd72f

Very interesting article. Thanks.

[columbia]

Naval ship named for Gabby Giffords to be commissioned
https://www.google.com/amp/nypost.com/2 ... ioned/amp/

[dodint]

*yawn*

[Shyster]

Destroyer USS Fitzgerald Collides with Philippine Merchant Ship

https://news.usni.org/2017/06/16/destro ... chant-ship

Oopsie.

[tifosi77]

The damage was midships the destroyer. Pending more info, I'd say the merchant ship did the colliding.

[Shyster]

Reports now say seven sailors are missing, and also that the commanding officer of the Fitzgerald was medevaced by the Japan Coast Guard.

[shafnutz05]

The damage was midships the destroyer. Pending more info, I'd say the merchant ship did the colliding.

Without a doubt. CG and Navy navigation procedures are pretty damn similar, but I still want to know how the hell this happened in the age of advanced radar systems.

[Shyster]

Agreed. An Arleigh Burke-class destroyer should be able to literally run circles around a container ship, and it's not like it's going to miss it even in the dark. (I believe the collusion was at something like 02:30 local time.) A relatively small, highly maneuverable ship bristling with radar and sensors should not be run over by a big lumbering container ship. I have a bad feeling that we will eventually find out this collision was an act of jackassery in the vein of the 2001 USS Greeneville collision; the Greeneville performed an emergency ballast-blow surfacing in order to impress some onboard VIP civilian guests, and in doing so collided with and sank a Japanese high-school training ship, killing nine people.

[Old Baldy]

You think maybe the Fitzgerald was trying to cut across the container ships bow as close as possible?

[columbia]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9vST6hVRj2A

[Old Baldy]

Every time I see images from Omaha Beach, the same thoughts pop in my head:

1) Who the heck picked that location?

Yeah, but it's literally the only beach west of the British/Canadian beaches but still close enough to join up quickly. The entire rest of the coastline west of the Brits is those high bluffs like at Point duHoc. The next beach is the area the became UTAH, but it's west of the flooded Vire River estuary. In fact UTAH was only added to the plan later when they realized they couldn't get to Cherbourg fast enough from the beaches east of the Vire River estuary. Then they had to add the two US airborne division drops to seize the UTAH flooded zone causeway exits and seal off the entire area from German counter-attack.

[Shyster]

You think maybe the Fitzgerald was trying to cut across the container ships bow as close as possible?

I think it's possible that something like that happened. I certainly hope I'm wrong.

[tifosi77]

Oh boy.

http://youtu.be/93NdwZAeXhI

[Kaiser]

I was expecting something from the blue max.

[tifosi77]

At this point, a silk scarf and goggles would be better than the helmet.

[Freddy Rumsen]

https://twitter.com/QEClassCarriers/sta ... 4698132482

[Old Baldy]

Book recommendation about WW2 Eighth Air Force B-17 operations pilots and crews?
Looking mostly for info on units, men and tactics, don't really need technical aircraft detail. And looking ahead thinking about the heavy bomber crews in the Southwest Pacific during the the Rabaul campaign. Just got done with Bruce Gamble's "Fortress Rabaul" so hoping to learn more about those units too.

[DigitalGypsy66]

Masters of the Air by Donald Miller is just the book you're looking for. It's also the basis for the upcoming Hanks-Spielberg HBO miniseries.