2018 Pittsburgh Pirates In-Season Thread

willeyeam
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2018 Pittsburgh Pirates In-Season Thread

Postby willeyeam » Wed May 23, 2018 10:15 am

good grief
i will only formally respond to and recognize posts from thepissbaby. thank you for your time

Troy Loney
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2018 Pittsburgh Pirates In-Season Thread

Postby Troy Loney » Wed May 23, 2018 10:15 am

columbia made more sense in here
True, Columbia usually had some sort of substance behind his posts. It really just seems like Dodint is only interested in coming in here when the Pirates are struggling for a victory lap.

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2018 Pittsburgh Pirates In-Season Thread

Postby slappybrown » Wed May 23, 2018 10:18 am

good grief
i will only formally respond to and recognize posts from thepissbaby. thank you for your time
Ulf, thank you for your input. May you and your family have a blessed Memorial Day.

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Postby dodint » Wed May 23, 2018 10:29 am

columbia made more sense in here
True, Columbia usually had some sort of substance behind his posts. It really just seems like Dodint is only interested in coming in here when the Pirates are struggling for a victory lap.
It's a continuation of the discussion we had at 11-4, I'm absolutely entitled to to check on the progress of my position every few weeks. I thought they'd be sub-.500 at the end of game 60 (as a milestone, not an end) and it looks like that probably won't happen but I still believe the hope cultivated from that fast start is unfounded.

You're an extension of the Pirates PR team. Consider me your antithesis. Just because my position isn't as palatable to the Pirates true believer doesn't make it wrong.

I don't even want the Pirates to fail; I just don't think it's reasonable to expect them to do otherwise.

I get shouted down here but the Pirates are still second to last in NL attendance and pulling less than 2k a game compared to the Reds; I'm sure you'll say it's too early in the season to look at comparative attendance numbers so we'll put a pin in that for now (again). I don't have data on the TV ratings but my guess is that I'm representing the silent (apathetic?) majority against the 'true' fans here.

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2018 Pittsburgh Pirates In-Season Thread

Postby willeyeam » Wed May 23, 2018 10:37 am

Wait, did I miss where anyone didn't expect them to fail?

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2018 Pittsburgh Pirates In-Season Thread

Postby dodint » Wed May 23, 2018 10:39 am

No, I made it up, I couldn't find enough things to complain about so I've concocted a straw man. Thanks for playing!

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2018 Pittsburgh Pirates In-Season Thread

Postby willeyeam » Wed May 23, 2018 10:48 am

Hmph

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2018 Pittsburgh Pirates In-Season Thread

Postby Troy Loney » Wed May 23, 2018 10:48 am

Right, you came in and criticized people for being encouraged by their strong start.

I can't imagine anyone gathering the muster to shout you down about attendance, it's really just a stupid talking point, i'm sure the Fan would love to hash it out with you, but I think folks interested in a discussion about the team will dismiss that topic.

I think calling people that disagree with you members of the PR team probably says enough really. I mean, even the hint that maybe the Pirates made some correct personnel moves and aren't deliberately sacrificing on field product for profits is enough to obtain that moniker.

To me, your just tailing along with the malcontents. There are a lot of teams in MLB that haven't had near as much success as the Pirates have had since 2013, the MLB economic framework basically ensures that the Red Sox, Yankees and Dodgers stay relevant, so while the Pirates obviously don't stack up well with those franchises, out of the rest of the Majors, they compare pretty well and do actually seem to know what they are doing. They are too risk averse when it comes to prospects and payroll which has prevented them from making a run like the Royals have made, but very few teams right now posses their combination of ML players with affordable control, a competitive ML roster and deep farm system. So right, they probably wont win the WS this year and might not be in playoff contention come September, but that can be said for 2/3's of the league. Does that 2/3's of the league have a contingent of fans that would rather be validated than see the team succeed in ways they think are cheap?

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Postby dodint » Wed May 23, 2018 10:59 am

I'm calling you an extension of the Pirates PR team. Just you. I've been reading you in these threads for years. You go the extra mile to excuse away behavior and find the tiniest bit of positive snippets to hang on to.

You're invested, well read, and present your arguments well. I respect that a lot and look forward to what you have to reading what you have to say day in and day out; I certainly do not contribute anything that comes close to that. That said, due to the overoptimistic nature of every post you have ever made regarding the Pirates it is difficult to take any particular assertion as objective or particularly insightful.

re: 2/3rds: The Pirates in my lifetime are a historically bad franchise. The three year oasis in twenty-five years of futility is not enough for me to flip the switch to optimism; and that's if you count WC games as a post-season berth. The Pirates are a better franchise than the Marlins if you want me to draw a line.

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Postby Troy Loney » Wed May 23, 2018 11:13 am

I'm in the same boat as you with the Pirates being deliberately futile during my formative years. The Pirates being simply competent seemed unimaginable as recently as like 2010. I think judging the pirates against their futile years would be a dumb exercise because the bar would be comically low, one also needs to be able to judge this current iteration of the team independent of the futile years.

I probably tend to pounce on the Pirate malcontents and challenge those positions because I find them founded on faulty grounds. This organization is good at some things and still very bad at others. They need to loosen up and take some risks because they need to find another anchor for the lineup.

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2018 Pittsburgh Pirates In-Season Thread

Postby Kraftster » Wed May 23, 2018 11:18 am

columbia made more sense in here
True, Columbia usually had some sort of substance behind his posts. It really just seems like Dodint is only interested in coming in here when the Pirates are struggling for a victory lap.
It's a continuation of the discussion we had at 11-4, I'm absolutely entitled to to check on the progress of my position every few weeks. I thought they'd be sub-.500 at the end of game 60 (as a milestone, not an end) and it looks like that probably won't happen but I still believe the hope cultivated from that fast start is unfounded.

You're an extension of the Pirates PR team. Consider me your antithesis. Just because my position isn't as palatable to the Pirates true believer doesn't make it wrong.

I don't even want the Pirates to fail; I just don't think it's reasonable to expect them to do otherwise.

I get shouted down here but the Pirates are still second to last in NL attendance and pulling less than 2k a game compared to the Reds; I'm sure you'll say it's too early in the season to look at comparative attendance numbers so we'll put a pin in that for now (again). I don't have data on the TV ratings but my guess is that I'm representing the silent (apathetic?) majority against the 'true' fans here.
Just chiming in to say as a neutral to say two things. First, you're losing this battle you've contrived. Second, thank you for helping me to understand a common criticism of Sam Harris. As a big Sam fan, I have a hard time relating to criticism of him. But seeing you exude an air of rationalist superiority while you (quite misguidedly, in my opinion) claim to be "just speaking rationally and logically" has given me a glimpse of how some people view Sam.

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Postby Troy Loney » Wed May 23, 2018 11:23 am

I know nothing about this Sam Harris thing, except that the Vox people seemed to have gotten into a spat with him because he agrees with Charles Murray that black people are less intelligent than white people? (this is what I have arrived at, but every time I try to understand this spat it seems like a waste of time)

What's funny is I skimmed some article yesterday about Harris that basically accused him of the same superiority complex.

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2018 Pittsburgh Pirates In-Season Thread

Postby Kraftster » Wed May 23, 2018 11:29 am

I know nothing about this Sam Harris thing, except that the Vox people seemed to have gotten into a spat with him because he agrees with Charles Murray that black people are less intelligent than white people?

What's funny is I skimmed some article yesterday about Harris that basically accused him of the same superiority complex.
He doesn't agree with Murray, but that's certainly what you'd be led to believe by Vox and Ezra Klein. Short version of the story is Sam had Murray on his podcast as a way of discussing the free speech/moral panic issue after Murray was shouted down on some college campus (and I believe a college employee was badly injured). Klein has been trying to convince his/Vox's audience that Sam is a racist since. They fought over email. They recently recorded a podcast together. Sam sought to defend himself and the importance of being able to have uncomfortable conversations. Ezra sought to show why there are conversations that simply cannot be had. They largely talked past one another. Ezra/Vox seem to have now doubled down on their effort to write about the "Intellectual Dark Web."

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Postby dodint » Wed May 23, 2018 11:31 am

But seeing you exude an air of rationalist superiority while you (quite misguidedly, in my opinion) claim to be "just speaking rationally and logically" has given me a glimpse of how some people view Sam.
I don't think this is fair. My trying to approach the problem logically is my fault which I openly admitted and ended that tangent there. Logic doesn't belong in sports fandom and sometimes I forget that when engaging in these kinds of discussions. I only bring up logic in the context of cutting off the discussion because it's going nowhere as I've brought an unrealistic standard to the table. TL goes to great lengths to rationalize his enthusiasm so I do get sucked into it at a more than 'superficial fandom' level.

I don't fault people for being fans at all. Blind loyalty is what being a fanatic is all about. I don't think someone else's blind loyalty is a reason for me to join in their misguided hope or even stand silently and watch, though.

I have no idea who Sam Harris is so I can't comment on that.

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Postby Troy Loney » Wed May 23, 2018 11:36 am

I know nothing about this Sam Harris thing, except that the Vox people seemed to have gotten into a spat with him because he agrees with Charles Murray that black people are less intelligent than white people?

What's funny is I skimmed some article yesterday about Harris that basically accused him of the same superiority complex.
He doesn't agree with Murray, but that's certainly what you'd be led to believe by Vox and Ezra Klein. Short version of the story is Sam had Murray on his podcast as a way of discussing the free speech/moral panic issue after Murray was shouted down on some college campus (and I believe a college employee was badly injured). Klein has been trying to convince his/Vox's audience that Sam is a racist since. They fought over email. They recently recorded a podcast together. Sam sought to defend himself and the importance of being able to have uncomfortable conversations. Ezra sought to show why there are conversations that simply cannot be had. They largely talked past one another. Ezra/Vox seem to have now doubled down on their effort to write about the "Intellectual Dark Web."
I can see how that can have played out that way. I think the only thing I would take issue with is the contrived issue about free speech on campus. I think the obsession with this issue by conservative commentators is incredibly annoying. There is absolutely nothing unique to college campuses, humans are intolerant of opposing viewpoints, whether they be the white working class, urban elites, or impressionistic college students.

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Postby the wicked child » Wed May 23, 2018 11:38 am

Fwiw, I enjoy the dodint-TL jousting. My interest in bb is pretty minumal, so it's fun to watch from the outside.

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Postby Kraftster » Wed May 23, 2018 11:41 am

I know nothing about this Sam Harris thing, except that the Vox people seemed to have gotten into a spat with him because he agrees with Charles Murray that black people are less intelligent than white people?

What's funny is I skimmed some article yesterday about Harris that basically accused him of the same superiority complex.
He doesn't agree with Murray, but that's certainly what you'd be led to believe by Vox and Ezra Klein. Short version of the story is Sam had Murray on his podcast as a way of discussing the free speech/moral panic issue after Murray was shouted down on some college campus (and I believe a college employee was badly injured). Klein has been trying to convince his/Vox's audience that Sam is a racist since. They fought over email. They recently recorded a podcast together. Sam sought to defend himself and the importance of being able to have uncomfortable conversations. Ezra sought to show why there are conversations that simply cannot be had. They largely talked past one another. Ezra/Vox seem to have now doubled down on their effort to write about the "Intellectual Dark Web."
I can see how that can have played out that way. I think the only thing I would take issue with is the contrived issue about free speech on campus. I think the obsession with this issue by conservative commentators is incredibly annoying. There is absolutely nothing unique to college campuses, humans are intolerant of opposing viewpoints, whether they be the white working class, urban elites, or impressionistic college students.
I think its a bit overblown too, but I do think college campuses are sufficiently unique in comparison with other fora that they present useful case studies for having the free speech discussion. We can PM if you want to discuss further, I don't want to further derail the Pirates thread. :slug:

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Postby Troy Loney » Wed May 23, 2018 11:42 am

But seeing you exude an air of rationalist superiority while you (quite misguidedly, in my opinion) claim to be "just speaking rationally and logically" has given me a glimpse of how some people view Sam.
I don't think this is fair. My trying to approach the problem logically is my fault which I openly admitted and ended that tangent there. Logic doesn't belong in sports fandom and sometimes I forget that when engaging in these kinds of discussions. I only bring up logic in the context of cutting off the discussion because it's going nowhere as I've brought an unrealistic standard to the table. TL goes to great lengths to rationalize his enthusiasm so I do get sucked into it at a more than 'superficial fandom' level.

I don't fault people for being fans at all. Blind loyalty is what being a fanatic is all about. I don't think someone else's blind loyalty is a reason for me to join in their misguided hope or even stand silently and watch, though.
I think the issue is that you've convinced yourself that they stink without any substantive base for that conclusion. You've referenced their past futility. I think you also said something about them not doing enough after 2015. That's basically the accepted position, which I also think is actually wrong, any improvements they would have made to that team for 2016 would have been cancelled out by the Cole and McCutchen down years.

There are a pluarality of cause/effect relationships that determine whether a team succeeds or fails in baseball, I wouldn't assume to know anything for sure.

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2018 Pittsburgh Pirates In-Season Thread

Postby Kraftster » Wed May 23, 2018 11:47 am

But seeing you exude an air of rationalist superiority while you (quite misguidedly, in my opinion) claim to be "just speaking rationally and logically" has given me a glimpse of how some people view Sam.
I don't think this is fair. My trying to approach the problem logically is my fault which I openly admitted and ended that tangent there. Logic doesn't belong in sports fandom and sometimes I forget that when engaging in these kinds of discussions. I only bring up logic in the context of cutting off the discussion because it's going nowhere as I've brought an unrealistic standard to the table. TL goes to great lengths to rationalize his enthusiasm so I do get sucked into it at a more than 'superficial fandom' level.

I don't fault people for being fans at all. Blind loyalty is what being a fanatic is all about. I don't think someone else's blind loyalty is a reason for me to join in their misguided hope or even stand silently and watch, though.

I have no idea who Sam Harris is so I can't comment on that.
But you're not approaching it logically at all. At one point you said you're the obverse of Troy's so-called puff pieces. That's the more accurate statement than your portrayal of your position as somehow rooted in logic. It seems very apparent as an observer that your perspective is the polar opposite of a fan, not that of a disinterested rational. You're clearly bringing wet-blanket baggage to this thread but are trying to pass it off as a neutral perspective when you spout this bit about talking past everyone because you're just being logical and not emotional.

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Postby dodint » Wed May 23, 2018 11:49 am

If the above is true and they do indeed stink then you would call it a hollow assertion that I don't enjoy credit for in the end anyway? That's a way of insulating yourself from any accountability I guess.

This thread and the stuff I pick up via osmosis by living in the viewing area is all I know about Pirates baseball. This team looks worse on paper than last year and I don't think they'll be successful. Not really a hot take; in fact, it didn't get hot until 11-4 happened and I laughed at the hope and optimism.

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Postby dodint » Wed May 23, 2018 12:03 pm

But you're not approaching it logically at all. At one point you said you're the obverse of Troy's so-called puff pieces. That's the more accurate statement than your portrayal of your position as somehow rooted in logic. It seems very apparent as an observer that your perspective is the polar opposite of a fan, not that of a disinterested rational. You're clearly bringing wet-blanket baggage to this thread but are trying to pass it off as a neutral perspective when you spout this bit about talking past everyone because you're just being logical and not emotional.
I've never said that I am approaching the Pirates logically; I said that applying logic to fan behavior is wrong on my part. You're mischaracterizing me, intentionally or otherwise. The only time I talked about logic was to say that it was unfair for me to apply that construct to fan positions, which is true. Who am I to tell ulf he shouldn't be a fan? Nobody, and that's not my position.

My position is simply that the Pirates are bad and do not deserve fan support, generally. When 11-4 happened the wheels on the bandwagon started to move and I pointed out that the optimism was unfounded.

I feel strongly enough about my position on the Pirates, and the eventual outcome, that I don't bother deploy a fact-based argument. It's like intellectual gambling, it's fun for me. And it has a win-win outcome because either the Pirates are good which is good for the community, or the Pirates suck and I was right. I'm happy to be the heel here even if I lose.*

I'm okay with an 'anti-fan' or 'anti-TL' label. And as I've said repeatedly now I haven't applied a logic based argument towards the Pirates so your assertion that I'm portraying myself that way is completely unfounded.

*If my participation in this thread is a true detriment to anyone's enjoyment of the game, let me know and I'll peace out. It's not that important to me, certainly not enough to put myself ahead of your collective good time. PM me if you don't want to speak up here.

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Postby Troy Loney » Wed May 23, 2018 12:13 pm


My position is simply that the Pirates are bad and do not deserve fan support, generally. When 11-4 happened the wheels on the bandwagon started to move and I pointed out that the optimism was unfounded.

I feel strongly enough about my position on the Pirates, and the eventual outcome, that I don't bother deploy a fact-based argument. It's like intellectual gambling, it's fun for me. And it has a win-win outcome because either the Pirates are good which is good for the community, or the Pirates suck and I was right. I'm happy to be the heel here even if I lose.*
So a malcontent?

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Postby Kraftster » Wed May 23, 2018 12:24 pm

But you're not approaching it logically at all. At one point you said you're the obverse of Troy's so-called puff pieces. That's the more accurate statement than your portrayal of your position as somehow rooted in logic. It seems very apparent as an observer that your perspective is the polar opposite of a fan, not that of a disinterested rational. You're clearly bringing wet-blanket baggage to this thread but are trying to pass it off as a neutral perspective when you spout this bit about talking past everyone because you're just being logical and not emotional.
I've never said that I am approaching the Pirates logically; I said that applying logic to fan behavior is wrong on my part. You're mischaracterizing me, intentionally or otherwise. The only time I talked about logic was to say that it was unfair for me to apply that construct to fan positions, which is true. Who am I to tell ulf he shouldn't be a fan? Nobody, and that's not my position.

My position is simply that the Pirates are bad and do not deserve fan support, generally. When 11-4 happened the wheels on the bandwagon started to move and I pointed out that the optimism was unfounded.

I feel strongly enough about my position on the Pirates, and the eventual outcome, that I don't bother deploy a fact-based argument. It's like intellectual gambling, it's fun for me. And it has a win-win outcome because either the Pirates are good which is good for the community, or the Pirates suck and I was right. I'm happy to be the heel here even if I lose.*

I'm okay with an 'anti-fan' or 'anti-TL' label. And as I've said repeatedly now I haven't applied a logic based argument towards the Pirates so your assertion that I'm portraying myself that way is completely unfounded.

*If my participation in this thread is a true detriment to anyone's enjoyment of the game, let me know and I'll peace out. It's not that important to me, certainly not enough to put myself ahead of your collective good time. PM me if you don't want to speak up here.
Well, if that's an inaccurate take, I'm just unable to interpret your words on a message bad. When you say it's unrealistic for you to expect "fans" to agree with your position because fandom isn't "logical," it (necessarily) suggests you think your take is one of logic and reason. That you think your position is more reason-based than that of the fans in this thread is supported by what you said just today in response to TL:
I don't even want the Pirates to fail; I just don't think it's reasonable to expect them to do otherwise.
Yet, so far as I can tell, you have no "reason" to think the Pirates suck apart from: "Pittsburgh Pirates, man."

I just read you as blatantly trolling and trying to pass it off as something else that is actually more sensible than the discussion from the "fans." Anyway, I'll go back to the peanut gallery. Sorry for the disruption.

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Postby dodint » Wed May 23, 2018 12:25 pm


My position is simply that the Pirates are bad and do not deserve fan support, generally. When 11-4 happened the wheels on the bandwagon started to move and I pointed out that the optimism was unfounded.

I feel strongly enough about my position on the Pirates, and the eventual outcome, that I don't bother deploy a fact-based argument. It's like intellectual gambling, it's fun for me. And it has a win-win outcome because either the Pirates are good which is good for the community, or the Pirates suck and I was right. I'm happy to be the heel here even if I lose.*
So a malcontent?
Yeah, fine. As long as it's known that, given the little I've bothered to gather, I genuinely feel that the team is bad and I don't take the position solely to to be contrarian. I think there is an important distinction in that I genuinely want the team to succeed but I don't believe this roster this year has that ability. When 11-4 happened and people started to forgive and forget it triggered my malcontentedness and this continued dialogue.

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Postby dodint » Wed May 23, 2018 12:33 pm

Well, if that's an inaccurate take, I'm just unable to interpret your words on a message bad. When you say it's unrealistic for you to expect "fans" to agree with your position because fandom isn't "logical," it (necessarily) suggests you think your take is one of logic and reason. That you think your position is more reason-based than that of the fans in this thread is supported by what you said just today in response to TL:
I don't even want the Pirates to fail; I just don't think it's reasonable to expect them to do otherwise.
Yet, so far as I can tell, you have no "reason" to think the Pirates suck apart from: "Pittsburgh Pirates, man."

I just read you as blatantly trolling and trying to pass it off as something else that is actually more sensible than the discussion from the "fans." Anyway, I'll go back to the peanut gallery. Sorry for the disruption.
That's fair. I don't think there is reason to believe the Pirates are winners this year, if you want to label that as a fully qualified argument and invoke it as a use of logic and all that comes with it then I'm trolling. I see it as the same mechanism used to be a fan generally, just applied in the obverse, and not an actual meaningful declaration.

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