2018 Pittsburgh Pirates In-Season Thread

Dickie Dunn
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2018 Pittsburgh Pirates In-Season Thread

Postby Dickie Dunn » Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:06 pm

Holy ****.

willeyeam
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2018 Pittsburgh Pirates In-Season Thread

Postby willeyeam » Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:07 pm

That was a fun baseball game to watch. Sweeping a five game series against Milwaukee is also fun. Go Bucs

shafnutz05
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2018 Pittsburgh Pirates In-Season Thread

Postby shafnutz05 » Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:08 pm

Great comeback win

Freddy Rumsen
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2018 Pittsburgh Pirates In-Season Thread

Postby Freddy Rumsen » Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:09 pm

Two-run, walkoff double by Josh Bell. Tanner Anderson gets his first MLB win. #Pirates complete the first five-game sweep in the majors in 12 yearas and go 7-1 v Nats and Brew.
https://mobile.twitter.com/RobBiertempf ... 4740817920

Gaucho
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2018 Pittsburgh Pirates In-Season Thread

Postby Gaucho » Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:10 pm

:thumb:

LeopardLetang
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2018 Pittsburgh Pirates In-Season Thread

Postby LeopardLetang » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:51 pm

I second Troy's plan. They are flooded with average players under control for cheap. And plenty of those are in the high minors. But maybe none look to be stars nor have enough value to trade for stars. To contend they have to turn to free agency it seems. I think they have to risk two huge contracts. SP1 and SS (or SP1b) could be the best bet.

You need at least an elite pitcher to get through the playoffs and they have enough SP3-5s. And they have enough versatile depth that it makes sense to go for a special commodity stud like at SS or C even. I haven't followed the majors to know who is out there and if the pirates could get them but they are set up to go huge in free agency with the least amount of downside.

I haven't been pushing for it in the past since signing middling free agents seems wasteful. But if Huntington has had success it isn't in getting his star prospects to flourish but it has been to turn mediocre signings/draftees into usable commodities. I don't think they can trade for stars or wait for stars so if they want to compete they'll have to pay for stars. And while that is very scoff worthy Huntington has set up the ideal situation to test Nutting's commitment to pay when the time comes. If not now - with a cost controlled, low payroll, young, average team, with no wave of star prospects coming, and with angry or worse, apathetic fans - then when?

Dickie Dunn
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2018 Pittsburgh Pirates In-Season Thread

Postby Dickie Dunn » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:55 pm

This team lacks any superstar power. Heck, they lack all-star power. What makes you think they are “almost there” Troy?
It's not necessary for a team to have an MVP candidate to to compete in baseball. But if you're going for quantity of quality, you need a lot of good quantity. I think the Pirates have actually attained NH's vision for the franchise, a roster filled with homegrown pre arbitration players and a triple A team feeding prospects on to the major league squad when there's injury or failure. While I'm clearly more prone to optimism with this team, there are some encouraging signs for the near future, I'll touch on those:

Elias Diaz, while I'm not ready to make him the everday catcher, he is a huge upgrade at C2 and has been more than capable for stepping in when Cervelli is hurt.
Colin Moran - He's held his head above water at 3B in his rookie season and I think he could be a guy that gets better as he gets more experience.
Kyle Crick - the 8th inning guy is so important and getting a guy like this is so important for this team, NH keeps proving he knows how to build a bullpen.
The rotation - no one is going to confuse them for the 90's Braves, but Taillon, Musgrove, Williams, Kingham and Kuhl are all in their pre-arb years. I'm very much of the opinion that if they were to find a taker for Nova here, and then allocate money to the rotation over the offseason for a guy that could come in and be the number one starter for this team,that would for one push Taillon and co down the order, but also be a strong stabilizing force. I think a guy like Keuchel would be ideal.

Here is essentially what I want to see them do for next year:

C Cervelli $11,500,000
1B Bell $600,000
2B Kramer/Neman $550,000
SS Escobar $15,000,000
3B Moran $600,000
RF Polanco $6,100,000
CF Marte $10,333,334
LF Meadows $550,000

1P Keuchel $25,000,000
2P Taillon $600,000
3P Musgrove $600,000
4P Williams $600,000
5P Kingham $550,000

BN Dickerson $8,500,000
BN Diaz $550,000
BN Luplow $550,000
BN Kramer/Moroff $550,000
BN Osuna/Frazier $550,000

RP Vazquez $4,500,000
RP Crick $550,000
RP Glasnow $550,000
RP Rodriguez $550,000
RP Feliz $1,200,000
RP Santana $550,000
RP Brault $550,000

$91,733,334
I always manage to admire your optimism and completely unfounded faith in this front office, but you're out you're god damn mind if you legitimately think they're spending $15MM+ per season on a single player let alone two.

MrKennethTKangaroo
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2018 Pittsburgh Pirates In-Season Thread

Postby MrKennethTKangaroo » Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:41 pm

In the past few years, management has consistently used the self fullfiling prophecy of saying the team isnt good enough to justify using resources to improve the team in the short term. Sure, there will be plenty of room to spend becuase even more payroll will be off the books when Harrison and Mercer are gone, but i don’t see this management group having the cajones to put all the chips on the table.

Plus, i am not so sure that even with a top tier free agent or two, this roster has enough playoff caliber players on it.

Troy Loney
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2018 Pittsburgh Pirates In-Season Thread

Postby Troy Loney » Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:54 pm

For me, it’s simply the “if not now, when?”question.

They have a crap ton of cheap, controlled young players. And none of them are looking at budget busting arbitration cases. It can not be justified for them to go into next year with a 60M payroll with this roster structure. They wouldn’t contend and they wouldn’t be in contention for a top draft pick.

This is an historic free agent class upcoming, I continue to hold out hope that they make a splash move.

Beveridge
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2018 Pittsburgh Pirates In-Season Thread

Postby Beveridge » Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:08 pm

Ned will root for Pitt before this front office makes a splash move in free agency.

MrKennethTKangaroo
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2018 Pittsburgh Pirates In-Season Thread

Postby MrKennethTKangaroo » Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:43 pm

Keep Ned out of the pirate thread; this is my safe space

LeopardLetang
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2018 Pittsburgh Pirates In-Season Thread

Postby LeopardLetang » Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:36 pm

In the past few years, management has consistently used the self fullfiling prophecy of saying the team isnt good enough to justify using resources to improve the team in the short term. Sure, there will be plenty of room to spend becuase even more payroll will be off the books when Harrison and Mercer are gone, but i don’t see this management group having the cajones to put all the chips on the table.

Plus, i am not so sure that even with a top tier free agent or two, this roster has enough playoff caliber players on it.
I don't quite see them having the cajones and I don't quite see this as a window to win with even two top tier free agents - if they could even get two to sign without unreasonably over payment. But what else can they do if they truly want to contend?

They contented me with 'wait for these prospects' but that wave is mostly over. I hold out some patience and belief that some of the young starters on the team now will adjust and improve. Guys that were part of the wave. And some good prospects exist (hayes has developed mightily this year - after the first month- though keller has struggled some)

So I think they have to double down now and show faith in this group because there's little for the small group of front office believers left to grasp onto - which I'm a part of. They surprised many fans before with signings and extensions but they were logical moves which improved my trust in them rather than surprised me. And I think big signings are logical now. It's the best plan at this point for multiple reasons

There's depth, control and tons of payroll room
Gaining trust from their current team
Gaining trust from fans

If they don't there isn't much logic for diehards to fall back on. Other than a weakening plea for well look how much they would have had to overpay and look how that contract is an albatross to the team that got our target when he starts poorly next year.

The risk is mitigated now more than ever though. An albatross can be their martyr which could buy them as many years as not taking the risk - at least for Huntington

For Nutting he could save millions but this year's attendance may be worrisome. As just fielding average teams doesn't generate excitement any more. And the stock will only trend downward.

Dickie Dunn
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2018 Pittsburgh Pirates In-Season Thread

Postby Dickie Dunn » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:28 am

For me, it’s simply the “if not now, when?”question.
Ever heard of never?

MrKennethTKangaroo
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2018 Pittsburgh Pirates In-Season Thread

Postby MrKennethTKangaroo » Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:50 am


I don't quite see them having the cajones and I don't quite see this as a window to win with even two top tier free agents - if they could even get two to sign without unreasonably over payment. But what else can they do if they truly want to contend?

They contented me with 'wait for these prospects' but that wave is mostly over. I hold out some patience and belief that some of the young starters on the team now will adjust and improve. Guys that were part of the wave. And some good prospects exist (hayes has developed mightily this year - after the first month- though keller has struggled some)

Yeah i mean you cant really dispute that the window has closed for the wait for these prospects hope. A few years ago, i think if you would have asked the front office and most fans, the self sustaining minor league system was a legit idea. But some guys fizzled out and some guys just haven’t been that good. I’ll cite taillon as one example. I get that it isnt fair to compare him to machado and Bryce Harper, but both of those guys are going to be free agents this year; taillon isnt a free agent until 2023. In this case, i’m Down on taillon’s development, not necessarily his production. He still hasn’t reached his full potential, and there are more than a few high school guys in that draft class that are at or near free agency. If he would have arrived when he was expected to arrive, things may have been different a few years back.

Glasnow is the same case. He shot through the lower levels of the minors, had a mid 2s era in the eastern league, and dominated AAA. Now we are sitting here two years after his major league debut and he has some sort of nebulous role in the bullpen and isn’t even mentioned when the people speak of the pirates “depth” in the rotation.

Troy Loney
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2018 Pittsburgh Pirates In-Season Thread

Postby Troy Loney » Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:00 am

The NH vision for adding to payroll is to buy out free agent years from guys that aren't that close to the open market. I think we all get stuck in the notion that players always get better with age/experience and have an inclining career arc. That's not been the case, and a lot of these internal extension from NH have been disasters, Tabata, Harrison, Liriano, Cervelli to an extent, and Polanco's is still being decided. If you look at this current crop of extendable players, you can't conceivably argue the need to get any of these players locked up long term:

Taillon, Bell, Williams, Kuhl, Glasnow, Crick, Moran, Musgrove.

When I try to add up all the pieces of this current squad, I see no other path than adding parts in free agency. If they were sitting on a guy like Manny Machado about to leave for FA, I'd think different, but Marte is the only on in that category, and trading him right now would torpefo this organization.

Dickie Dunn
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2018 Pittsburgh Pirates In-Season Thread

Postby Dickie Dunn » Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:18 am

Good god man this has become more concerning that your Moustakas/Todd Frazier delusions from last offseason. Here's your payroll for next season:

C Cervelli $11,500,000 - only because his brain is too concussed to trade him
1B Bell $600,000
2B Kramer/Newman $550,000
SS Escobar $15,000,000
SS Mercer $6,000,000 - Hurdle can't quit him; will probably be cheaper than his last arbitration number
3B Moran $600,000
RF Polanco $6,100,000
CF Marte $10,333,334
LF Meadows $550,000

1P Keuchel $25,000,000
1P Taillon $600,000
2P Middling veteran who is probably named Ivan Nova $9,167,000 - won't net a high return at the deadline; keeping him is cheaper than signing a pitcher next season
3P Musgrove $600,000
4P Williams $600,000
5P Kingham $550,000

BN Dickerson $8,500,000 - Gone at the deadline
BN Middling veteran who could very well be named David Freese $6,000,000
BN Diaz $550,000
BN Luplow $550,000
BN Kramer/Moroff $550,000
BN Osuna/Frazier $550,000

RP Vazquez $4,500,000
RP Crick $550,000
RP Glasnow $550,000
RP Rodriguez $550,000
RP Feliz $1,200,000
RP Santana $550,000
RP Brault $550,000

$64,400,334

Here's your front office quotes for next season:

"As a small market team the financial odds are really stacked against us."
"Our TV deal doesn't give us as much financial flexibility as the lucrative TV deals negotiated by large market teams."
"Ya know it's really unfortunate, but we just had the lowest attendance in the history of PNC Park. Now I'm not saying it's the fault of the fans (but it really is), but maybe if more people would show up to the games we could spend more money on payroll."

Etc.

King Colby
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2018 Pittsburgh Pirates In-Season Thread

Postby King Colby » Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:09 pm

All the assets they have to trade this year aren't really going to get them much in the way of prospects. I believe keeping dickerson is more valuable than trading him. I get the clearing playing time for Meadows argument, but is Meadows ever going to be as good as Dickerson is now? Probably not.

King Colby
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2018 Pittsburgh Pirates In-Season Thread

Postby King Colby » Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:15 pm

They should be trading Cervelli and Mercer. Those two are likely to get the most back. Diaz isn't far off of cervelli now if at all and teams need a catcher. Plus that 11 mill is better suited elsewhere. Mercer should be a nice pickup for someone.

Hopefully they find takers for nova, Harrison, freese. Otherwise harrison and Freese will be gone for nothing when they decline club option.

willeyeam
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2018 Pittsburgh Pirates In-Season Thread

Postby willeyeam » Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:51 pm

All the assets they have to trade this year aren't really going to get them much in the way of prospects. I believe keeping dickerson is more valuable than trading him. I get the clearing playing time for Meadows argument, but is Meadows ever going to be as good as Dickerson is now? Probably not.
At the end of the day, Dickerson isn't all that great, so yeah I hope so. He's given away all his power to hit .300. which is great, don't get me wrong. But he's an average fielder at best, with no speed. There's a reason we got him for Daniel Hudson

MrKennethTKangaroo
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2018 Pittsburgh Pirates In-Season Thread

Postby MrKennethTKangaroo » Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:53 pm

Dickerson isn’t a stud but honestly, its not like a playoff team couldn’t use his services. Look at some of the guys that have played a lot of outfield in the past two world serieses. There is some obvious high end talent, but a lot of guys with pedestrian numbers, too.

MrKennethTKangaroo
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2018 Pittsburgh Pirates In-Season Thread

Postby MrKennethTKangaroo » Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:55 pm

Also, summer weekdays without pirate baseball is less satisfying than summer weekdays with pirate baseball....even if it is crappy or mediocre pirate baseball

Dickie Dunn
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2018 Pittsburgh Pirates In-Season Thread

Postby Dickie Dunn » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:17 pm

Padres got Baseball America #25 prospect/Keith Law #5 prospect Francisco Mejia from the Indians for closer Brad Hand and setup man Adam Cimber. Embracing a true rebuild and dealing Vazquez could net something juicy in return.

willeyeam
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2018 Pittsburgh Pirates In-Season Thread

Postby willeyeam » Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:22 pm

Padres got Baseball America #25 prospect/Keith Law #5 prospect Francisco Mejia from the Indians for closer Brad Hand and setup man Adam Cimber. Embracing a true rebuild and dealing Vazquez could net something juicy in return.
Vazquez is better than what this organization will turn any top 30 prospect into

Dickie Dunn
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2018 Pittsburgh Pirates In-Season Thread

Postby Dickie Dunn » Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:32 pm

Padres got Baseball America #25 prospect/Keith Law #5 prospect Francisco Mejia from the Indians for closer Brad Hand and setup man Adam Cimber. Embracing a true rebuild and dealing Vazquez could net something juicy in return.
Vazquez is better than what this organization will turn any top 30 prospect into
Most likely, but what’s the point of a top level closer when every save he records is essentially worthless?

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2018 Pittsburgh Pirates In-Season Thread

Postby NailedPenguin » Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:21 am

The blog boys were all but beaten into submission until that sweep the brewers :UndertakeSitUp.gif: Now they're pretending the trade deadline for this team has an ounce of mystery around it.

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