2018 Pittsburgh Pirates In-Season Thread

[MrKennethTKangaroo]

I'm a pitt and pirate fan so ive conditioned myself to not care about how many people go to the games, but it is pretty idiotic to point to the pirates bad attendance during a single homestand as some sort of validation is really, really dumb.

[dodint]

It was a reply to your question, I just put it here rather than talking Pirates in a Penguins playoff thread. It wasn't a post I would've made without your prompting. It's not a reply about the Pirates, it's a reply about my dislike for the cognitive dissonance it takes to be positive about that team. It takes a betrayal of the past and unwarranted hope; two things that I find unpalatable about fandom generally and certainly in this case.

Whether you agree or not is neither here nor there, you asked.

[dodint]

I'm a pitt and pirate fan so ive conditioned myself to not care about how many people go to the games, but it is pretty idiotic to point to the pirates bad attendance during a single homestand as some sort of validation is really, really dumb.

It's 'really dumb' in the same way rallying behind a small sample size (11-4, early season attendance records, whatever) is foolish. That's why I looked up attendance/game rather than raw attendance numbers. It's the fairest look this early in the season, Pittsburgh is not the only city with weather issues, etc. The Reds are drawing more than the Pirates, the Cubs are drawing almost double.

[Troy Loney]

It was a reply to your question, I just put it here rather than talking Pirates in a Penguins playoff thread. It wasn't a post I would've made without your prompting. It's not a reply about the Pirates, it's a reply about my dislike for the cognitive dissonance it takes to be positive about that team. It takes a betrayal of the past and unwarranted hope; two things that I find unpalatable about fandom generally and certainly in this case.

Whether you agree or not is neither here nor there, you asked.

I mean again, what basis are using to dismiss this 2018 team? The 20 year string of losing seasons? Did you turn off 2013-2015 because it didn't fit your idea of what this team is?

[Troy Loney]

I'm a pitt and pirate fan so ive conditioned myself to not care about how many people go to the games, but it is pretty idiotic to point to the pirates bad attendance during a single homestand as some sort of validation is really, really dumb.

It's 'really dumb' in the same way rallying behind a small sample size (11-4, early season attendance records, whatever) is foolish. That's why I looked up attendance/game rather than raw attendance numbers. It's the fairest look this early in the season, Pittsburgh is not the only city with weather issues, etc. The Reds are drawing more than the Pirates, the Cubs are drawing almost double.

But again, fans choosing not to go to games is not a gauge on how good they are.

Also:

Historically speaking, a 9-3 start isn’t an automatic ticket to the playoffs, but it does bode very well. Of the 32 teams to get out to such a start 1995-2017, 22 reached the playoffs, 19 by winning their respective divisions. Fourteen of the last 15 such teams reached the postseason, 12 by winning their respective divisions:

Notice the last part, 14 out of the last 15 teams who have started this strong have made the playoffs (assuming that the additional WC team has since boosted that likelihood).

[dodint]

Turning their back on the 2015 team is why I dismiss the 2018 team. Turning a 98 win team into a 78 win team is proof enough for me that this front office does not care about results. The 20 year stretch isn't even a factor. They overcame that. And when they did, nothing changed. The culture is rotten from the top down and until it changes fans should tune out.

It's pretty clear we're talking past each other. I'm not going to give you forward looking baseball reasons why this team will fail, and you have no concept of fans not rewarding flaccid ownership. It's okay, we can go separate ways, neither of us takes the other seriously.

[Troy Loney]

I fully understand why fans want to complain about the ownership, the Pirates stoutly refuse to bolster the team with expensive FA's.

Assigning all blame for 2016 on ownership is revisionist history IMO.

[dodint]

You'd know better than me, for sure. I don't think this group has earned the benefit of the doubt, though and it's sad to me to see that they're getting it.

But that is expecting logic from sports fans which isn't reasonable at all. But the obverse of that is every two weeks it's perfectly fair for me to drop in and say it's all smoke and mirrors, I don't think it's out of line.

[Morkle]

You'd know better than me, for sure. I don't think this group has earned the benefit of the doubt, though and it's sad to me to see that they're getting it.

But that is expecting logic from sports fans which isn't reasonable at all. But the obverse of that is every two weeks it's perfectly fair for me to drop in and say it's all smoke and mirrors, I don't think it's out of line.

To be fair I think everyone who is in here would give them the benefit of the doubt based on the continual belief that they'd perform. I think the people in here aren't typical Johnny come lately fans. The average person believes the Pirates are cheap and will be cheap, imo.

[Troy Loney]

You'd know better than me, for sure. I don't think this group has earned the benefit of the doubt, though and it's sad to me to see that they're getting it.

But that is expecting logic from sports fans which isn't reasonable at all. But the obverse of that is every two weeks it's perfectly fair for me to drop in and say it's all smoke and mirrors, I don't think it's out of line.

Where are the smoke and mirrors?

Well, I still honestly don't understand the basis for your position. I can tell you how I'm understanding it, which is still the same as my initial response. You get off on being a wet blanket. Probability speaking, it's still very likely that the Pirates finish closer to 80 wins than 90 and miss the playoff. You are using likliehood as a substitute for analysis, and allowing the former to justify your conviction.

The fan base, outside of the "they're cheap" crowd, was skeptical about this team because of legit questions around Polanco, Cervelli, Nova, Kuhl, Moran, and the bullpen. Some of those questions are answered, and some still need to be addressed. There is plenty of upside to this team and reason to be encouraged.

[dodint]

Sure. And I think you get off on writing positive PR puff-pieces for the team. We're about as far apart as we can get.

[Troy Loney]

I suppose it can be summed into people looking for optimism vs people looking for pessimism.

[Freddy Rumsen]

This team was Cleveland Browns bad until Neal Huntington took over. Without collapse one and two (in both cases NH sold prospects for temporary players) they win 2011-2014.

It is silly to say anything that says NH has generally done a good job as a "puff piece".

[willeyeam]

I for one am glad we have people around to let us know when to be happy and not to be happy because otherwise I would have caught myself enjoying the Buccos being 11-4 and in first place

[dodint]

It becomes a 'puff piece' when everything you have to say is that they've done a good job.

[Troy Loney]

NH is definitely not batting a 1.000, but he has really done a ton to put this organization on firm ground. I suppose I'm in a minority that believe their steep decline from 2015 to 2016-2017 is commensurate with the player performance drops from McCutchen, Cole and Liriano in 2016 and from Polanco, Cervelli, Marte, and Kang in 2017.

I think to a lot of people, banking on Polanco and Moran was akin to playing the powerball, but these are former top prospects and still young at 26 and 25 respectively, not Lastings Milledge and Andy Laroche V2s. Their top two starters still have a pre-arb year after this one and they have probably the starting pitching prospect with the highest floor currently in the minors.

[Freddy Rumsen]

It becomes a 'puff piece' when everything you have to say is that they've done a good job.

In comparison to Cam Bonifay and Dave Littlefield, Neal Huntington is first ballot hall of famer.

[willeyeam]

NH effed up and blew the offseason after 2015. I've posted in more detail on this last year but he has one hell of a tough job all things considered. He's gotten the team back to where being around .500 os a disappointment, when I could only dream of that six years ago. On the other hand, as I said, he blew it 3 years ago and now we're back near .500. if you put a gun to my head and said extend NH or fire NH in November I would have said time to move on.. but at the end of the day things could have went a lot worse under his tenure.

[NailedPenguin]

About 6 people at the game tonight. 2 of them are Stan and the Fort

[willeyeam]

I'm about as big of a baseball fan as there is and you couldn't pay me to be there with this weather. Basically I wouldn't expect any casual fans to go regardless of the boycott drama

[Freddy Rumsen]

Whelp Brault...

[Troy Loney]

With the offense coming back to earth, they need to try and upgrade the pitching staff.

Kuhl was dreadful at the start of last year, but had a strong second half, I don't know if that's something that ban be expected or not. Brault is walking too many guys to be a reliable starter. I think you have to cross your fingers with Kuhl and have Musgrove push Brault out.

[MrKennethTKangaroo]

there are lexus club seats currently available for $110 on stubhub for tonights game. there is a very good chance those tickets drop in price before game time. free food + easy access to heat would probably make those seats worth it tonight

[LITT]

do you get free booze too?

[robbiestoupe]

It's all you can eat buffet (a step above Eat N Park, but nothing great) and all you can eat stadium junk food. Maybe free pop, but not free booze.