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Orlando Penguin
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Postby Orlando Penguin » Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:07 am

Get some new nets in there
lol the ones from the doc are old chain nets that they’ve replaced with nylon and they took the rims down now because of COVID

what’s funny is that this court is only like 2 years old so Jordan never could’ve played on it
That’s what we like to call in the business an ‘establishing’ shot.

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Postby DigitalGypsy66 » Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:31 am

But they could’ve shot a basketball court anywhere for those shots, and went all the way to Wilmington to do that. Pretty cool.

I knew Jordan was a competitor, but he still gets fired up TO THIS DAY about the Pistons no handshakes at the end of that series.

Horace Grant looks like he’s 35. :lol:

MWB
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Postby MWB » Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:07 am

Thought the same thing about Jordan and the pistons, lol. Isaiah Thomas was a little dodint.

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Postby iamjs » Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:09 am

I never realized how much MJ disliked Zeke. Like I knew that Jordan supposedly had a hand in keeping him off one of the olympic teams, but hearing him last night at the mere mention of Thomas' name, you could tell there is legit dislike.

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Postby dodint » Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:13 am

If you'd like a salty read from the Detroit Free Press, here you go: Don't let 'The Last Dance' make you forget how beautiful the 'Bad Boys' Pistons could be
They were beautiful to watch. Though I doubt you’ll see that Sunday night when ESPN's “The Last Dance” details Michael Jordan and the Chicago Bulls’ effort to overcome the Bad Boys.

Some narratives are too hard to overcome; the mythology was set long ago.

MWB
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Postby MWB » Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:40 am

They weren’t beautiful to watch, especially in comparison to the showtime lakers, the ultra ball movement Celtics, and the Jordan Bulls that surrounded them.

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Postby Dickie Dunn » Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:53 am

The Bad Boys Pistons = The Trapping Devils. They won, but it sucked.

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Postby willeyeam » Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:09 pm


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Postby willeyeam » Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:11 pm

Not that I want to debate MJ vs LeBron but I think when people talk about the big bad 90s they don't consider the athletes today vs then

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Postby Morkle » Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:26 pm

Lebron in the 90s would have decimated everyone, but I think would have had issues not being treated the way he is today with fouls.

Jordan in the now, would decimate everyone based on being given everything.

Two different players, two different times, both generational. MJ still better, if you consider championships, imo.

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Postby LITT » Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:42 pm

the championship debate is a stupid measuring stick in this debate. this is strictly speaking for cleveland lebron - miami and LAL are different stories - MJ had pipped and most of rodman and dont forget ron harper (MACtion)

lebron took a team of booby gibson, eric snow, sasha pavlocic, drew goodin, and zydronis ilguskas to the finals. TO THE FINALS!!! and mike brown as coach? ROFLCOPTER. The talent lebron had around pre-miami is a freaking laugh riot.

miami lebron is a good comparison of MJ
MJ -- Lebron
pippen -- wade
kerr - ray allen

also to note - the GSW rosters that lebron faced are nothing like MJ ever saw

this is not an opinion on MJ v LBJ but rather that we need to recalibrate our evaluation tool

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Postby MWB » Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:57 pm

No doubt Jordan had more help than early Lebron. He also played in a tougher conference though.

Lebron was more well equipped to deal with a physical team than Jordan. However, I wonder how he would have dealt with that abuse earlier in his career, especially if he wasn’t getting the calls. Jordan always seemed to have a mental toughness. Lebron seemed to grow into that.

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Postby MalkinIsMyHomeboy » Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:59 pm

really the only argument I have right now that "MJ > Lebron" is 6 > 3. It's an arbitrary measure, yeah, but it's nigh impossible to make other comparisons. There are so many variables like teammates, coaches, style of play in the era, greatness of other teams in the era, etc

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Postby MWB » Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:22 pm

I mean, watching them play is a decent metric. Not to take anything away from Lebron, but if I was starting a team, I’d take Jordan first.

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Postby willeyeam » Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:22 pm

No doubt Jordan had more help than early Lebron. He also played in a tougher conference though.

Lebron was more well equipped to deal with a physical team than Jordan. However, I wonder how he would have dealt with that abuse earlier in his career, especially if he wasn’t getting the calls. Jordan always seemed to have a mental toughness. Lebron seemed to grow into that.
I don't think there were many players with the size to actually abuse LeBron enough to bother him enough to impact anything

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Postby MalkinIsMyHomeboy » Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:30 pm

I mean, watching them play is a decent metric. Not to take anything away from Lebron, but if I was starting a team, I’d take Jordan first.
that's a tough way to compare though because they do different things. Jordan was a better pure scorer than Lebron, Lebron is a better facilitator

like in the doc they talked about how Phil had to convince MJ to pass to Paxson in the NBA finals to beat the Lakers. That stuff all came naturally to Lebron

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Postby willeyeam » Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:52 pm

I laughed at that sequence because I remember LeBron passing up a game winning shot or two early in his career and the narrative was that he didn't have a killer instinct to shoot the dagger like MJ did

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Postby MWB » Mon Apr 27, 2020 5:02 pm

No doubt Jordan had more help than early Lebron. He also played in a tougher conference though.

Lebron was more well equipped to deal with a physical team than Jordan. However, I wonder how he would have dealt with that abuse earlier in his career, especially if he wasn’t getting the calls. Jordan always seemed to have a mental toughness. Lebron seemed to grow into that.
I don't think there were many players with the size to actually abuse LeBron enough to bother him enough to impact anything
I was meaning the Pistons specifically. Mahorn and Laimbeer were both pretty big. And Mahorn at least, was pretty built. And both were dirty af.

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Postby Morkle » Mon Apr 27, 2020 5:04 pm

No doubt Jordan had more help than early Lebron. He also played in a tougher conference though.

Lebron was more well equipped to deal with a physical team than Jordan. However, I wonder how he would have dealt with that abuse earlier in his career, especially if he wasn’t getting the calls. Jordan always seemed to have a mental toughness. Lebron seemed to grow into that.
I don't think there were many players with the size to actually abuse LeBron enough to bother him enough to impact anything
I was meaning the Pistons specifically. Mahorn and Laimbeer were both pretty big. And Mahorn at least, was pretty built. And both were dirty af.
Plus the way the Pistons played wasn't just physical, they tried to hurt players by shoving in the back, etc.

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Postby MWB » Mon Apr 27, 2020 5:07 pm

I mean, watching them play is a decent metric. Not to take anything away from Lebron, but if I was starting a team, I’d take Jordan first.
that's a tough way to compare though because they do different things. Jordan was a better pure scorer than Lebron, Lebron is a better facilitator

like in the doc they talked about how Phil had to convince MJ to pass to Paxson in the NBA finals to beat the Lakers. That stuff all came naturally to Lebron
I agree they’re different players who bring different things. But looking at the overall package of things they did, Jordan did more, IMO. Bill Simmons has been doing a rewatchaBulls podcast going through some of their playoff games. Against the Knicks in 93 they played a full court trap all game. I went back and rewatched. It was incredible to see the amount of effort he put out on defense, and then still scored 54.

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Postby MWB » Mon Apr 27, 2020 5:07 pm

I laughed at that sequence because I remember LeBron passing up a game winning shot or two early in his career and the narrative was that he didn't have a killer instinct to shoot the dagger like MJ did
One of the dumbest critiques ever.

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Postby Ad@m » Mon Apr 27, 2020 5:51 pm

No doubt Jordan had more help than early Lebron. He also played in a tougher conference though.

Lebron was more well equipped to deal with a physical team than Jordan. However, I wonder how he would have dealt with that abuse earlier in his career, especially if he wasn’t getting the calls. Jordan always seemed to have a mental toughness. Lebron seemed to grow into that.
I don't think there were many players with the size to actually abuse LeBron enough to bother him enough to impact anything
I was meaning the Pistons specifically. Mahorn and Laimbeer were both pretty big. And Mahorn at least, was pretty built. And both were dirty af.
You forgot Adrian Dantley and John Salley. I hated that team along with the coach, Chuck Daly.

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Postby MWB » Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:05 pm

And Isiah Thomas, who seems like an all- around ass.

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Postby Orlando Penguin » Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:25 am

I think Jordan vs LeBron is a bit apples and oranges because they're two different body types working in two different eras with pretty different rules as far as freedom of movement and what defenses are allowed. Where I think the differentiation comes into play is how strong the opposition was during each's era. When Jordan's Bulls were first making their playoff runs where MJ was the full focal point of the offense, they first had to deal with the back end of the Celtics 80's run in the East followed by the Pistons beating them to hell as the decade turned. You compare that to LeBron's first run with the Cavs, he's the focal point of the offense and they get a weak draw to the finals in 07 only having to deal with the back end of the Ben Wallace/Chauncey Billups muck-it-up Pistons run. But over the next 3 years, they couldn't get over the hump because they'd run into the Paul Pierce Celtics and the Jameer Nelson Magic. So, the advantage there would probably lean LeBron simply because he got to a Finals.

Now let's move to the dominant eras. Jordan's championship runs had to go thru those Pistons who they could never beat but also Barkley's Sixers (with Mahorn on the team too) that always gave them trouble as well as the Ewing/Oakley Knicks, the Cavs who had Price, Nance, and Daugherty, and then at the very end, Reggie and the Pacers had strengthened enough to be a big threat (they really should have won Game 7 in that 98 ECF). I'd argue that the Bulls did have it pretty easy in the East in 96 and 97 but 4 out of those 6 titles certainly had difficult runs somewhere in the East. As for LeBron, when he went to the Heat, there wasn't much to talk about in the East. There was the back end of the Pierce-Allen-KG Celtics and that was about it. Granted, that Heat team was pretty damn loaded but there just wasn't any sort of competition to give them a little pain in their runs to the Finals. When LeBron goes to the Cavs, same thing. The East is incredibly weak and his roster is plenty strong enough that it doesn't take much to get to the Finals. Hell, the one year, they may as well have just played Golden State-Cleveland the week after the regular season ended and not go through the process of getting to that inevitable end. But here's the telling part -- Jordan's teams were 6 for 6 when they got to the Finals in large part, I think, because of the competition they dealt with leading into those Finals. LeBron's teams from 2010-11 to 2017-18 made 8 straight Finals but only won 3 of them. A lack of a test or two going into that, I think, is a good reason. As good as those Miami teams were, they should have won all 4 years he was there and yet, it took a Ray Allen 3 late in regulation in Game 6 in to keep them from LOSING 3 out of 4 years. Advantage -- overwhelmingly on Jordan's side.

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Postby willeyeam » Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:31 am

all that writing to compare team championships ;)

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