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Postby count2infinity » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:27 pm

i don't really know why every pilot i can remember having is a dude, though. are there institutional obstacles or is it just another thing where the person who makes babby can't really have a certain kind of job without some real personal dilemmas to face, balancing motherhood and work?
The classic chicken or the egg in gender studies... Does job/occupation/major/field x have y% of women because women just aren't interested in that/there's some genetic predisposition for women to not go into that field or is it due to societal expectations that stamp out any interest at a young age and women are told "You can't be a ________, that's for boys."

I'm guessing there's at least a little of both, but more the latter in the case of pilots.

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Postby MR25 » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:27 pm

I thought that was canon to Bond anyway - it was a moniker named after the original 007, and subsequent 007s carried on the name as a legacy.

In which case, race wouldn't mean ****. Like M being a man up until Judy Dench took that mantle in Goldeneye. M is just the moniker.

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Postby nocera » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:27 pm

Source of the post in 2020, a british secret agent who is also an epic poon hound could be either white or black, and there's also no continuity from Brosnan-to-Craig.
It's 2021, shmenguin.
Last edited by nocera on Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby count2infinity » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:28 pm

Judy Dench was incredible in that role, btw.

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Postby shmenguin » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:28 pm

nobody under a certain age cares about James Bond or Daniel Craig, so they changed the model. same reason why the Pope is now cool with gay people.
I don't think that's true considering it's one of the all time most successful film franchises and still does pretty well in the box office.
another movie thread crossover (Up still stinks). but being all time most successful doesn't tell you about modern adoption.

i dunno...i could easily be wrong. i just don't get the sense that Bond means much anymore.

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Postby shmenguin » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:29 pm

Source of the post in 2020, a british secret agent who is also an epic poon hound could be either white or black, and there's also no continuity from Brosnan-to-Craig.
It's 2021, shmenguin.
yes but movies released now were made last year.

...and that's completely what i meant. mmm hmm.

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Postby MalkinIsMyHomeboy » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:31 pm

I think one way around the "whitewashing" or "blackwashing" thing is to create a new character within that world to takeover the role. Spider-Man has Mile Morales. Similarly, the Bond franchise could have a new character take up the 007 mantle.
yeah. I'm generally fine with this. Or like, I think what they're going to do with the Bond franchise is introducing a black female character as 008 or something. I'm ok with that. I'm probably not going to watch any of the movies because that franchise has been tired for a while (last Bond I've seen is Casino Royale), but I think it works

replacing a character with an actor of another race/gender/sexuality is bad. introducing new characters is good

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Postby Freddy Rumsen » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:31 pm

Outside of this conversation, when you ask somebody to describe the James Bond character, nobody in their right mind is going to include "white" in their description.
Go out and ask someone if James Bond is white or black.
That's not really what I meant. I meant that his race isn't essential whatsoever to his character.
In the books he is a real person with a backstory. The whole retcon when it came to Craig (to a lesser degree Brosnan) changed things.

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Postby Tomas » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:31 pm

Outside of this conversation, when you ask somebody to describe the James Bond character, nobody in their right mind is going to include "white" in their description.
Go out and ask someone if James Bond is white or black.
The moment where the laughable defenders of "white male Bond" lose the argument is when they claim that (a) Ian Fleming must be turning in his grave seeing this, yet (b) they are COMPLETELY OK with the fact that this fairy take figure Bond moves through decades like Connor MacLeod without any signs of aging, battles enemies that had not existed during the lifetime of the original author, fires guns that have not existed. And yet the defenders of white Bond are completely against the idea that during the last 50 years, the norms of the society might have evolved.

"Bond" is a magic character who has the licence to kick ass. In 1950s, it is inconceivable that a person in that position would be anything but white. But if you are willing to sit in the movie theater enjoying "Bond" kick ass in 2020+, the idea that in the last 50 years the society advanced to the point that this top ass kicking agent may be Black, or woman pretty much must be on the table by default...

And, BTW, James Bond is boring...
Last edited by Tomas on Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Morkle » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:31 pm

white/black aside - when the rumors of Idris Elba taking over the 007 were going on. I was pumped, because I thought he'd be fantastic for the role.

I don't care about color as much as I care about the person representing the values. There's a certain look and charm that make that character special.

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Postby nocera » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:33 pm

nobody under a certain age cares about James Bond or Daniel Craig, so they changed the model. same reason why the Pope is now cool with gay people.
I don't think that's true considering it's one of the all time most successful film franchises and still does pretty well in the box office.
another movie thread crossover (Up still stinks). but being all time most successful doesn't tell you about modern adoption.

i dunno...i could easily be wrong. i just don't get the sense that Bond means much anymore.
Spectre was the latest release in 2015 and it made $880,674,609 worldwide. The previous movie, Skyfall, is the highest grossing Bond of all time at $1,108,561,013 worldwide. I think it's doing okay.

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Postby count2infinity » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:33 pm

white/black aside - when the rumors of Idris Elba taking over the 007 were going on. I was pumped, because I thought he'd be fantastic for the role.

I don't care about color as much as I care about the person representing the values. There's a certain look and charm that make that character special.
Agreed... Daniel Craig, for whatever reason, always gave off a Zoolander vibe to me.

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Postby shmenguin » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:36 pm

Source of the post replacing a character with an actor of another race/gender/sexuality is bad
this is just a weird, broad statement, tbh. if a movie is written well and is comprised of good performances, then IDGAF. you, i guess, want everything to be canonical? like...when you watch the last jedi, you're thinking about how the star wars christmas TV special plays into it?

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Postby MalkinIsMyHomeboy » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:36 pm

Fast and Furious gets **** (some of it deservedly so) for being corny but they're one of the best examples of organic diversity. All of the diversity in the films is natural but good. Characters of all races, ethnicities and strong female characters. I'm not sure if they actually would do this, but they could introduce a trans character and I think it would go over very well. Don't make a huge point of it but just "hey I'm trans", "cool" and then they do stupid stuff with cars the rest of the movie

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Postby shmenguin » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:39 pm

nobody under a certain age cares about James Bond or Daniel Craig, so they changed the model. same reason why the Pope is now cool with gay people.
I don't think that's true considering it's one of the all time most successful film franchises and still does pretty well in the box office.
another movie thread crossover (Up still stinks). but being all time most successful doesn't tell you about modern adoption.

i dunno...i could easily be wrong. i just don't get the sense that Bond means much anymore.
Spectre was the latest release in 2015 and it made $880,674,609 worldwide. The previous movie, Skyfall, is the highest grossing Bond of all time at $1,108,561,013 worldwide. I think it's doing okay.
a 230 mill slide is a dark omen. not gaining new audiences.

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Postby nocera » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:40 pm

nobody under a certain age cares about James Bond or Daniel Craig, so they changed the model. same reason why the Pope is now cool with gay people.
I don't think that's true considering it's one of the all time most successful film franchises and still does pretty well in the box office.
another movie thread crossover (Up still stinks). but being all time most successful doesn't tell you about modern adoption.

i dunno...i could easily be wrong. i just don't get the sense that Bond means much anymore.
Spectre was the latest release in 2015 and it made $880,674,609 worldwide. The previous movie, Skyfall, is the highest grossing Bond of all time at $1,108,561,013 worldwide. I think it's doing okay.
a 230 mill slide is a dark omen. not gaining new audiences.
That might be true. We'll see with No Time To Die. Personally I think it had more to do with Spectre being a **** movie though.

Also Skyfall is more of the anomaly than Spectre. Domestic top 10 below:

Skyfall ($304.4 million)
Spectre ($200.1 million)
Quantum of Solace ($168.4 million)
Casino Royale (2006) ($167.4 million)
Die Another Day ($160.9 million)
The World is Not Enough ($126.9 million)
Tomorrow Never Dies ($125.3 million)
GoldenEye ($106.4 million)
Moonraker ($70.3 million)
Octopussy ($67.9 million)
https://www.forbes.com/sites/travisbean ... e171571804

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Postby shmenguin » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:43 pm



I don't think that's true considering it's one of the all time most successful film franchises and still does pretty well in the box office.
another movie thread crossover (Up still stinks). but being all time most successful doesn't tell you about modern adoption.

i dunno...i could easily be wrong. i just don't get the sense that Bond means much anymore.
Spectre was the latest release in 2015 and it made $880,674,609 worldwide. The previous movie, Skyfall, is the highest grossing Bond of all time at $1,108,561,013 worldwide. I think it's doing okay.
a 230 mill slide is a dark omen. not gaining new audiences.
That might be true. We'll see with No Time To Die. Personally I think it had more to do with Spectre being a **** movie though.
fair enough. Quantum of Solace was just terrible - especially compared to Casino Royale. But they bounced back on the next one.

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Postby Freddy Rumsen » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:43 pm

Spectre was not good.

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Postby Faftorial » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:45 pm

I haven't seen a Bond movie since Moonraker. My Dad was a fan so he took us to the 70's movies when they came out.
Last edited by Faftorial on Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby MalkinIsMyHomeboy » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:45 pm

Source of the post replacing a character with an actor of another race/gender/sexuality is bad
this is just a weird, broad statement, tbh. if a movie is written well and is comprised of good performances, then IDGAF. you, i guess, want everything to be canonical? like...when you watch the last jedi, you're thinking about how the star wars christmas TV special plays into it?
it's bad because it ignites culture wars. replacing a black character with a white actor is bad. I think most people would agree with that because black characters are underrepresented in media. But there's a large gap between people who think replacing a white character with a black actor is bad or not bad. The conversation will go something like this

"replacing the white character with a black actor is bad. If the roles were switched it would be unacceptable"

"aw boo hoo! poor white people"

"I'm not saying white people have the same struggles as black people but there's a clear double standard here"


I personally don't care about what race is what but it does frustrate me when stuff like that happens. We'll never achieve racial harmony if we're saying "doing it one way is unacceptable but doing it the other way is ok". If you want to know why Trump got voted into presidency, that's a big reason why. You can continue to support that double standard but don't post in here wondering why people voted for over the top fascist candidates. This is a big reason why


also keep in mind that I call out bullshit where bullshit exists. If the Capital Insurrectionists were non-white, they would've been shot at. It would've been bad. That is a double standard that also needs to get fixed.

ultimately I just hate double standards because they insult my intelligence.
Last edited by MalkinIsMyHomeboy on Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby MalkinIsMyHomeboy » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:45 pm



I don't think that's true considering it's one of the all time most successful film franchises and still does pretty well in the box office.
another movie thread crossover (Up still stinks). but being all time most successful doesn't tell you about modern adoption.

i dunno...i could easily be wrong. i just don't get the sense that Bond means much anymore.
Spectre was the latest release in 2015 and it made $880,674,609 worldwide. The previous movie, Skyfall, is the highest grossing Bond of all time at $1,108,561,013 worldwide. I think it's doing okay.
a 230 mill slide is a dark omen. not gaining new audiences.
That might be true. We'll see with No Time To Die. Personally I think it had more to do with Spectre being a **** movie though.

Also Skyfall is more of the anomaly than Spectre. Domestic top 10 below:

Skyfall ($304.4 million)
Spectre ($200.1 million)
Quantum of Solace ($168.4 million)
Casino Royale (2006) ($167.4 million)
Die Another Day ($160.9 million)
The World is Not Enough ($126.9 million)
Tomorrow Never Dies ($125.3 million)
GoldenEye ($106.4 million)
Moonraker ($70.3 million)
Octopussy ($67.9 million)
https://www.forbes.com/sites/travisbean ... e171571804
how the hell did Die Another Day make so much?

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Postby tifosi77 » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:47 pm

Gaetz must have done something because he asked Trump for a blanket pardon.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/06/us/p ... ardon.html
Say it loud, and say it often........

You can't be pardoned by the President for things that aren't federal crimes; you can't be pardoned for things you didn't actually do.

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Postby nocera » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:50 pm

Source of the post how the hell did Die Another Day make so much?
Probably the height of Halle Berry's career, Thanksgiving release with not much competition, idiots.

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Postby count2infinity » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:51 pm

Source of the post replacing a character with an actor of another race/gender/sexuality is bad
this is just a weird, broad statement, tbh. if a movie is written well and is comprised of good performances, then IDGAF. you, i guess, want everything to be canonical? like...when you watch the last jedi, you're thinking about how the star wars christmas TV special plays into it?
it's bad because it ignites culture wars. replacing a black character with a white actor is bad. I think most people would agree with that because black characters are underrepresented in media. But there's a large gap between people who think replacing a white character with a black actor is bad or not bad. The conversation will go something like this

"replacing the white character with a black actor is bad. If the roles were switched it would be unacceptable"

"aw boo hoo! poor white people"

"I'm not saying white people have the same struggles as black people but there's a clear double standard here"


I personally don't care about what race is what but it does frustrate me when stuff like that happens. We'll never achieve racial harmony if we're saying "doing it one way is unacceptable but doing it the other way is ok". If you want to know why Trump got voted into presidency, that's a big reason why. You can continue to support that double standard but don't post in here wondering why people voted for over the top fascist candidates. This is a big reason why


also keep in mind that I call out bullshit where bullshit exists. If the Capital Insurrectionists were non-white, they would've been shot at. It would've been bad. That is a double standard that also needs to get fixed.

ultimately I just hate double standards because they insult my intelligence.
Seems your argument is that for very specific characters that represent very specific instances, you have to have a very specific person cast. I agree. If one of the mandingos in Django Unchained was white, I certainly would been saying "now hold on just a damn minute... what's that guy doing?" Same as if one of the KKK members of that movie were black. Wouldn't make any sense.

But for other roles, like Bond, what's the big deal? Why does Bond have to be a white guy? Because he was in the first 50 movies? There's nothing inherent in Bond, especially if they're going to move him into the modern day, that says he has to be white.

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Postby MWB » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:52 pm

Yeah, NP was probably closest to what you guys want to believe all Republicans are haha

These TV yokels that are closer to political televangelists than anything...real...
oh mikey, come spend some time in Western PA. There's all kinds of NPs here
There are definitely people like that, but IMO they are the vocal minority.


Vocal minority, yes. But are they also wielding the power of the party? I think right now, they are.

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