Politics And Current Events

[LeopardLetang]

I'm in on appreciating MIHMs take. Any intellectual conversation about history can (like troy mentioned) compare the possible moral motives held at the time. I'm thinking shmenguin is saying it's our duty to blast out the media of 'slave supporters bad' for those that don't think intellectually. Since frustratingly, those that don't think with nuance are moving our world.

[Gaucho]

I think shmenguin's point is that you can understand what 1860 means without pretending it's still 1860.

[shafnutz05]

King Leopold of Belgium would cut off the hands of african children and deliver them to their parents as a warning to work harder or else.

But...this was 100 years ago. And Leopold was looking out for his people. And by doing what he did in Africa, he set his nation up for decades of prosperity that they still benefit from today. The beer...the architecture...Belgium is a peaceful, wonderful place - in part to Leopold's devotion to his country.

It's a shame about those kids though. But you could see how the guys who were pinning down the 6 year old girls before the axe cut through their tiny bones were really just trying to do their best. who's to say what's right?

See, this is one guy that I can wholeheartedly agree with you on. I am looking at King Leopold's Ghost on my bookshelf right now. Dude was a monster.

We know in 2021 that slavery is abhorrent. Full stop. That said, slavery has existed literally since the dawn of man. The only reason why the nonstop reparations/US is evil talk drives me nuts is that there seems to be this collective amnesia with a lot of people that white men in the United States were the only people to ever own slaves. Or the constant refrain that "the United States was built on the back of slavery". So was virtually every other civilization (yes, including civilizations of color) in the world up until the 20th century.

Africans enslaved other Africans for centuries before white people found them. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure that the hotbeds of slavery in 2021 are still Africa and the Middle East. Native Americans were committing infanticide, rape, torture, enslavement, etc. long before we came and "stole" their land (the same land they undoubtedly stole from some other poor saps).

For me personally, that's why the constant, in-your-face focus on racial/identity politics, America's "dark past", reparations, etc. grates on me. It seems like a lot of these people think American exceptionalism is stupid, except for the part where we were the only ones that did bad things.

[shmenguin]

this thing about interpreting a movie is dumb and beside the point.

you're doing a hot take because you're bored on a friday and trying to inject nuance into something very clear. it's irritating, mainly because i don't even think you care, so it's another one where you're trying to score internet points by using the suffering of others as a prop. this isn't that dissimilar to churning up george floyd's criminal history for no reason.

Considering there are multiple people that seem to agree with MIHM and view it differently, it's not just some "boredom hot take thing". In fact it seems you are more the outlier.

I think MIHM is a bright guy who often shoots from the hip, and these takes are beneath him. The rest of you...meh.

[shmenguin]

King Leopold of Belgium would cut off the hands of african children and deliver them to their parents as a warning to work harder or else.

But...this was 100 years ago. And Leopold was looking out for his people. And by doing what he did in Africa, he set his nation up for decades of prosperity that they still benefit from today. The beer...the architecture...Belgium is a peaceful, wonderful place - in part to Leopold's devotion to his country.

It's a shame about those kids though. But you could see how the guys who were pinning down the 6 year old girls before the axe cut through their tiny bones were really just trying to do their best. who's to say what's right?

See, this is one guy that I can wholeheartedly agree with you on. I am looking at King Leopold's Ghost on my bookshelf right now. Dude was a monster.

We know in 2021 that slavery is abhorrent. Full stop. That said, slavery has existed literally since the dawn of man. The only reason why the nonstop reparations/US is evil talk drives me nuts is that there seems to be this collective amnesia with a lot of people that white men in the United States were the only people to ever own slaves. Or the constant refrain that "the United States was built on the back of slavery". So was virtually every other civilization (yes, including civilizations of color) in the world up until the 20th century.

Africans enslaved other Africans for centuries before white people found them. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure that the hotbeds of slavery in 2021 are still Africa and the Middle East. Native Americans were committing infanticide, rape, torture, enslavement, etc. long before we came and "stole" their land (the same land they undoubtedly stole from some other poor saps).

For me personally, that's why the constant, in-your-face focus on racial/identity politics, America's "dark past", reparations, etc. grates on me. It seems like a lot of these people think American exceptionalism is stupid, except for the part where we were the only ones that did bad things.

Were we not behind the curve on slavery? And after we corrected it, did we create policy that would ensure that black people would largely be second class citizens 150 years later?

America stinks. Other western countries stink. But we stink in a special way. Not sure what to tell ya.

Doesn’t mean you throw the baby out with the bath water but ours is a shameful history and I think it’s an issue that half the country is unwilling to come to terms with that.

[Freddy Rumsen]

It's also kind of funny to remember the "nothing to see here" excuses that were made at the time by Walter Duranty and other useful idiots for the Soviets during the same War.

It can be argued that Stalin killed far more people than Hitler and that the actions of the Soviet Army in Ukraine, Finland, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, and Germany where as bad as anything the Werhmacht ever did.

Yet because they were on our team it's not seen is that big a deal.

Likewise the idea that your average Irish immigrant in the 49th New York Infantry was marching through Northern Virginia to free the slaves or that the poor dirt farmer in the 10th Alabama in front of the earthworks at Petersburg was doing so to keep the black man down is also nonsense.

[MalkinIsMyHomeboy]

It can be argued that Stalin killed far more people than Hitler and that the actions of the Soviet Army in Ukraine, Finland, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, and Germany where as bad as anything the Werhmacht ever did.

Yet because they were on our team it's not seen is that big a deal.

this is one thing that always seemed weird to me

I would bet less than half of the US population are even aware of what Holodomor is or refers to. which is odd. There's such a significant lack of education on it

there are people in the US who think it's reprehensible flying the confederate flag but think it's a-ok to fly the hammer and sickle.

[shmenguin]

I’ve never seen anyone frame Stalin as “not a big deal”.

People know and connect to the Holocaust on a personal level, so it’s really unfair to Hitler that he’s seen as such a bad guy compared to his peers.

[shmenguin]

Also, a confederate flag represents white supremacy. A swastika represents anti-semitism. A hammer and sickle represents anti-capitalism.

Whatever these used to mean or wherever they came from, ok. But that’s what they mean today.

There’s no iconography reflecting what Stalin, in particular, was.

[Troy Loney]

Who think Stalin was on their team?

This is where one needs to pull their head out of the online cess pool and reevaluate their understanding of things.

We are not limited to hitler and stalin when listing out murderous dictators. So it’s really best to not just equate hitler - right and Stalin - left.

[MalkinIsMyHomeboy]

Also, a confederate flag represents white supremacy. A swastika represents anti-semitism. A hammer and sickle represents anti-capitalism.

to you, yes. To others, I bet not. I’m sure a Ukrainian would have a different response

[shmenguin]

Who think Stalin was on their team?

This is where one needs to pull their head out of the online cess pool and reevaluate their understanding of things.

We are not limited to hitler and stalin when listing out murderous dictators. So it’s really best to not just equate hitler - right and Stalin - left.

Stalin was on our team, in a sense. But it’s not like it was a principled thing.

I’m appreciative of the Russian efforts in WW2. And also, Stalin was a monster. I’m not sure how there’s any other take.

[shmenguin]

Also, a confederate flag represents white supremacy. A swastika represents anti-semitism. A hammer and sickle represents anti-capitalism.

to you, yes. To others, I bet not. I’m sure a Ukrainian would have a different response

That’s who Freddy was talking about of course...the Ukrainians.

[Freddy Rumsen]

Who think Stalin was on their team?

This is where one needs to pull their head out of the online cess pool and reevaluate their understanding of things.

We are not limited to hitler and stalin when listing out murderous dictators. So it’s really best to not just equate hitler - right and Stalin - left.

This is a weird ahistorical take. There was a lot of disagreement within the Allied command of making common cause with the Russians, but it was felt that supporting them with cash, material, and support was the best way to go.

That doesn't even get into the pleasure cruises morons like Bernie Sanders took there even after Khrushchev had admitted to all the atrocities committed by Stalin.

Out of the six professors I had in my major program at Pitt four of them had Soviet propaganda in their offices and would wax poetically in class about the advantages of life in USSR over "Capitalist" America.

[shmenguin]

That’s very stupid of them, but id bet a dollar that they don’t think that way BECAUSE of labor camps and whatnot.

As opposed to the confederate flag, where today - white supremacy is the point.

[tifosi77]

You already need a background check to purchase a firearm you would use for carry.

What would be the need to have another for carrying?

Depends on the temporal relationship between the purchase and the carry. If I walk out of the store with a new pistol and IWB holster and start carrying straight away, sure. But if I walk out of the store and six months later commit a crime that would flag me on a background check, and then 2 years after that decide I want to start carrying again...........

I don't really have a problem with requiring a 'refresh' on your background check. But at the same time, I think if you require that on whatever periodic basis, you shouldn't have to submit to a check for every individual interaction with the system during that period.

[Freddy Rumsen]

I wonder where the "TrUmPs gOnNa uNdO tHe cOnStItUtIoN" people at?

[Freddy Rumsen]

You already need a background check to purchase a firearm you would use for carry.

What would be the need to have another for carrying?

Depends on the temporal relationship between the purchase and the carry. If I walk out of the store with a new pistol and IWB holster and start carrying straight away, sure. But if I walk out of the store and six months later commit a crime that would flag me on a background check, and then 2 years after that decide I want to start carrying again...........

I don't really have a problem with requiring a 'refresh' on your background check. But at the same time, I think if you require that on whatever periodic basis, you shouldn't have to submit to a check for every individual interaction with the system during that period.

Though if you commit a crime to invalidate a later background check that would likely keep you from holding on to the weapon at all right?

[tifosi77]

Obviously there is agreement on like rocket launchers, the line is at ar’s I would think

I always chuckle when people bring up the rocket launcher/bazooka fallacy. I just can't wrap my brain around the thought process of someone who thinks people would want an RPG for self defense.

"There's someone breaking in at the front of the house; destroy it!"

"The intruder?"

"No, the house! Hand me the bazooka!!!!"

I mean...........

The 2nd Amendment protects the right to own weapons that are in common military service. So yes, it protects the right to own weapons of war. But rocket launchers, come on, man.

[shmenguin]

If we had widely accessible bazooka ranges, people would buy bazookas and claim self defense, tif

[AuthorTony]

I'm sure I could find a use for some grenades...

[tifosi77]

lol come on, let’s not play that game. I’m not a diehard patriot. Fighting against the US doesn’t make someone evil. If someone defected from the US military to fight for, say, the Sioux against the US (ala Dances with Wolves), we would be much sympathetic to their cause

Obviously fighting for slavery is not a sympathetic cause but Lee was siding with his state rather than his country. If the US military invaded Pittsburgh, would you fight for Pittsburgh or fight for the US? You’re seen as a traitor either way by the other side. You just better **** hope your side wins or else you’ll be seen as a villain

He and everyone who took up arms against the Union was a traitor. It's the literal definition of the word. Stop.

To your second point, we've gone over this time and again. The definition of 'terrorist' is entirely dependent on which side of the boom you're on. How do you think the British would've regarded George Washington had the Revolution not panned out? Do you think they would've taken his years of service during the French & Indian War and given him a noogie and told him to go back to planting tobacco in Mt Vernon? No. It would've been short drop-sudden stop time.

I can see why southerners in 1875 still held Lee and other Civil War fighters in some esteem. Why any of them do so today is damnable.

[shafnutz05]

Pretty much

[shmenguin]

Dubois is not a contemporary writer for Vox.com, btw
(View thread)


The south knew better. I understand the foot soldiers were props for the redneck aristocracy, but Lee knew. And he didn’t care.

[MalkinIsMyHomeboy]

He and everyone who took up arms against the Union was a traitor. It's the literal definition of the word. Stop.

you're missing the entire point of the discussion. he was by definition an traitor. I don't care about that