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Postby NTP66 » Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:02 am

There's no nuance to the fact that he was a traitor to America and should be treated as such.

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Postby MalkinIsMyHomeboy » Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:08 am

lol come on, let’s not play that game. I’m not a diehard patriot. Fighting against the US doesn’t make someone evil. If someone defected from the US military to fight for, say, the Sioux against the US (ala Dances with Wolves), we would be much sympathetic to their cause

Obviously fighting for slavery is not a sympathetic cause but Lee was siding with his state rather than his country. If the US military invaded Pittsburgh, would you fight for Pittsburgh or fight for the US? You’re seen as a traitor either way by the other side. You just better **** hope your side wins or else you’ll be seen as a villain
Last edited by MalkinIsMyHomeboy on Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Morkle » Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:08 am

That type of "there's nuance to it stuff" is why the confederate flag is still proudly waved by the south in areas. Dude was a traitor to the US.

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Postby Morkle » Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:09 am

lol come on, let’s not play that game. I’m not a diehard patriot. Fighting against the US doesn’t make someone evil. If someone defected from the US military to fight for, say, the Sioux against the US (ala Dances with Wolves), we would be much sympathetic to their cause

Obviously fighting for slavery is not a sympathetic cause but Lee was siding with his state rather than his country. If the US military invaded Pittsburgh, would you fight for Pittsburgh or fight for the US? You’re seen as a traitor either way by the other side. You just better **** hope your side wins or else you’ll be seen as a villain
I mean that's not true at all. Had Germany won WW2. I'm pretty sure they'd be seen as villains.

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Postby shmenguin » Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:09 am

People think that because Lee possessed immense talent, it creates some sort of ambiguous moral landscape. It doesn't. He was a talented monster. So was Genghis Khan. And basically every other bad guy from history. F*** him. It's too bad he wasn't strung up.

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Postby shmenguin » Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:10 am

lol come on, let’s not play that game. I’m not a diehard patriot. Fighting against the US doesn’t make someone evil. If someone defected from the US military to fight for, say, the Sioux against the US (ala Dances with Wolves), we would be much sympathetic to their cause

Obviously fighting for slavery is not a sympathetic cause but Lee was siding with his state rather than his country. If the US military invaded Pittsburgh, would you fight for Pittsburgh or fight for the US? You’re seen as a traitor either way by the other side. You just better **** hope your side wins or else you’ll be seen as a villain
oh lord, what are you doing here?

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Postby MalkinIsMyHomeboy » Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:11 am

That type of "there's nuance to it stuff" is why the confederate flag is still proudly waved by the south in areas. Dude was a traitor to the US.
Nearly everyone that flies the confederate flag looks at Lee with the same lack of nuance as people who think he was “just a traitor”

He wasn’t a hero, nor was he a villain. We like to paint broad strokes with our brushes because it’s easier for us to swallow. It’s hard to admit that humans are complicated
Last edited by MalkinIsMyHomeboy on Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:12 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby MalkinIsMyHomeboy » Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:11 am

lol come on, let’s not play that game. I’m not a diehard patriot. Fighting against the US doesn’t make someone evil. If someone defected from the US military to fight for, say, the Sioux against the US (ala Dances with Wolves), we would be much sympathetic to their cause

Obviously fighting for slavery is not a sympathetic cause but Lee was siding with his state rather than his country. If the US military invaded Pittsburgh, would you fight for Pittsburgh or fight for the US? You’re seen as a traitor either way by the other side. You just better **** hope your side wins or else you’ll be seen as a villain
I mean that's not true at all. Had Germany won WW2. I'm pretty sure they'd be seen as villains.
History is written by the victors. If Germany won ww2 we would not be having this conversation

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Postby mikey » Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:12 am

People who could generally take or leave patriotism (at best), really seem to get up in arms at the traitor talk for the Confederacy...it's an interesting snap metamorphosis, if nothing else...

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Postby shmenguin » Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:12 am

There's no nuance to the fact that he was a traitor to America and should be treated as such.
there's nothing inherently wrong with being a traitor. sometimes it's the prudent thing to do. we were once traitors to Britain, no?

he fought to preserve the enslavement of humans. don't care where his heart was. that's exactly what he was doing. and that's why he's scum.

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Postby Morkle » Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:13 am

lol come on, let’s not play that game. I’m not a diehard patriot. Fighting against the US doesn’t make someone evil. If someone defected from the US military to fight for, say, the Sioux against the US (ala Dances with Wolves), we would be much sympathetic to their cause

Obviously fighting for slavery is not a sympathetic cause but Lee was siding with his state rather than his country. If the US military invaded Pittsburgh, would you fight for Pittsburgh or fight for the US? You’re seen as a traitor either way by the other side. You just better **** hope your side wins or else you’ll be seen as a villain
I mean that's not true at all. Had Germany won WW2. I'm pretty sure they'd be seen as villains.
History is written by the victors. If Germany won ww2 we would not be having this conversation
If Germany won, they'd probably own France/Belgium and those areas. They probably wouldn't dare come to the US. I'd imagine this conversation would still be happening.

I don't know what to tell you man, I think this is one where it's just such a bad take, I don't really know what to say past it.

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Postby MalkinIsMyHomeboy » Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:14 am

People who could generally take or leave patriotism (at best), really seem to get up in arms at the traitor talk for the Confederacy...it's an interesting snap metamorphosis, if nothing else...
yeah, I don't get it at all. Most leftists here probably scoff at patriotism yet hold being traitorism as the highest of crimes. It's paradoxical

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Postby Morkle » Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:15 am

People who could generally take or leave patriotism (at best), really seem to get up in arms at the traitor talk for the Confederacy...it's an interesting snap metamorphosis, if nothing else...
yeah, I don't get it at all. Most leftists here probably scoff at patriotism yet hold being a traitor as the highest of crimes. It's paradoxical
So in this vein, how do you feel about what happened on 1/6? I'm generally interested now, because these people thought they were going at it for their states. I'm sure there's nuance there too.

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Postby shmenguin » Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:15 am

That type of "there's nuance to it stuff" is why the confederate flag is still proudly waved by the south in areas. Dude was a traitor to the US.
Nearly everyone that flies the confederate flag looks at Lee with the same lack of nuance as people who think he was “just a traitor”

He wasn’t a hero, nor was he a villain. We like to paint broad strokes with our brushes because it’s easier for us to swallow. It’s hard to admit that humans are complicated
who's to say who the good guys were in the civil war? why do we assume that lincoln was right? do we KNOW that blacks evolved from the same species as us? do you WANT cheap crops? do they even feel pain like we do? why should the south have to give up its economy due to all these unprovable hypotheticals?

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Postby MR25 » Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:18 am

The "patriotism" argument seems like a red herring here.

Robert E Lee fought for slavery. **** everything else. That's what makes him bad.

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Postby willeyeam » Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:20 am

People who could generally take or leave patriotism (at best), really seem to get up in arms at the traitor talk for the Confederacy...it's an interesting snap metamorphosis, if nothing else...
yeah, I don't get it at all. Most leftists here probably scoff at patriotism yet hold being traitorism as the highest of crimes. It's paradoxical
Like actual patriotism, or "I'm a patriot" ? Because the biggest "patriots" we've had were also the biggest traitors we've had recently.

My thoughts on Lee aren't even really tied to slavery. He was the leader of a war against our country. I don't need to get too deeper than that.

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Postby shmenguin » Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:22 am

Even if his personal motives were not “slavery” - he fought for slavery. At best he was some kind of unprincipled mercenary.

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Postby MalkinIsMyHomeboy » Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:25 am

People who could generally take or leave patriotism (at best), really seem to get up in arms at the traitor talk for the Confederacy...it's an interesting snap metamorphosis, if nothing else...
yeah, I don't get it at all. Most leftists here probably scoff at patriotism yet hold being a traitor as the highest of crimes. It's paradoxical
So in this vein, how do you feel about what happened on 1/6? I'm generally interested now, because these people thought they were going at it for their states. I'm sure there's nuance there too.
there's nuance to it but they're much less sympathetic. They did what they believed in. They genuinely thought the election was stolen. Whether they were working in good faith or not, Idk. That also doesn't excuse their crimes. That's part of the risk they take. If they succeeded in whatever they thought they were doing, they would've been excused of whatever crimes they committed. However; they failed, and thus have to pay the piper. This is why I put so much responsibility on Trump. He is the **** that manipulated them. They thought they were fighting for freedom, justice, their human rights, etc. Whether or not they had the mental capability to truly understand what they were doing, I'm not sure

another problem is that the entire group is generalized by the worst meaning actors. There was a large group of people there. I bet some of them were intending to be completely peaceful (not that that excuses them storming the capitol). But the worst meaning actors planted bombs and killed police officers. Thus, we see the entire group as that








idk man. I admit: both a strength and a weakness of mine is I can be very sympathetic/empathetic. I'm not saying this to be a contrarian, genuinely. At its best that means I can understand people; understand that even if their actions were bad, they didn't intend for it or had good intentions behind their bad actions. At its worst, I excuse bad behavior.

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Postby dodint » Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:27 am

I'm with MiMH on this one. The cultural relativism at play here is so far removed from any kind of context that I can easily see how Lee is flatly rejected by people conversing in this thread on their smartphones.

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Postby faftorial » Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:28 am

"Good people on both sides."

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Postby NTP66 » Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:28 am

Joke's on you, clown, I'm using a desktop computer.

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Postby MalkinIsMyHomeboy » Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:28 am

also I hope you guys understand that last paragraph. I'm not saying this to be an annoying ****. It's a genuinely complicated thing in my opinion.


for example, nuclear weapons in WW2. Imo that's war criminality. Truman should've been tried and convicted of crimes against humanity. But others would argue that what he did was justfied. idk. it's complicated.

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Postby Morkle » Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:32 am

People who could generally take or leave patriotism (at best), really seem to get up in arms at the traitor talk for the Confederacy...it's an interesting snap metamorphosis, if nothing else...
yeah, I don't get it at all. Most leftists here probably scoff at patriotism yet hold being a traitor as the highest of crimes. It's paradoxical
So in this vein, how do you feel about what happened on 1/6? I'm generally interested now, because these people thought they were going at it for their states. I'm sure there's nuance there too.
there's nuance to it but they're much less sympathetic. They did what they believed in. They genuinely thought the election was stolen. Whether they were working in good faith or not, Idk. That also doesn't excuse their crimes. That's part of the risk they take. If they succeeded in whatever they thought they were doing, they would've been excused of whatever crimes they committed. However; they failed, and thus have to pay the piper. This is why I put so much responsibility on Trump. He is the **** that manipulated them. They thought they were fighting for freedom, justice, their human rights, etc. Whether or not they had the mental capability to truly understand what they were doing, I'm not sure

another problem is that the entire group is generalized by the worst meaning actors. There was a large group of people there. I bet some of them were intending to be completely peaceful (not that that excuses them storming the capitol). But the worst meaning actors planted bombs and killed police officers. Thus, we see the entire group as that








idk man. I admit: both a strength and a weakness of mine is I can be very sympathetic/empathetic. I'm not saying this to be a contrarian, genuinely. At its best that means I can understand people; understand that even if their actions were bad, they didn't intend for it or had good intentions behind their bad actions. At its worst, I excuse bad behavior.
:thumb:, don't take it as an attack, was geniously curious about your take on it.

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Postby Morkle » Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:34 am

also I hope you guys understand that last paragraph. I'm not saying this to be an annoying ****. It's a genuinely complicated thing in my opinion.


for example, nuclear weapons in WW2. Imo that's war criminality. Truman should've been tried and convicted of crimes against humanity. But others would argue that what he did was justfied. idk. it's complicated.
I agree, that they attacked a society rather than an army. Although, crack a few eggs to make an omelet, I guess. But I'd imagine to Japan as well, we're not looked at as kind in that situation, even though we "won."

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Postby shmenguin » Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:34 am

I'm with MiMH on this one. The cultural relativism at play here is so far removed from any kind of context that I can easily see how Lee is flatly rejected by people conversing in this thread on their smartphones.
you talking 1/6 or the centuries of human enslavement?

i do understand moral relativism and how several Cletus's felt emboldened to own slaves, treat them fine and then take up arms to protect their right to do so. but today, in 2021, i believe it's ok to call that behavior unambiguously monstrous and condemn slave owners, post hoc. they're dead. it's ok to cancel them. it's like those pictures of lynchings with all the white ladies who couldn't be wearing bigger smiles. i get it. they went home, made dinner and were generally fine...except for that whole lynching thing. but i'm ok calling them tw*ts in retrospect. no need to white knight for these people. it's sort of important that you don't, actually - considering that we haven't resolved the root cause of white supremacy.

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