Politics And Current Events

Shyster
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Postby Shyster » Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:40 pm

They are necessary, because human nature does not change.

I suspect that many of those on here would agree with the statement, "The Second Amendment, and firearms ownership, is an outdated relic of our barbarous past." I suspect that many of you may also feel that firearms ownership is actually a barrier to our progress towards a more peaceful and better future.

I disagree with both concepts. Throughout human history, a substantial chunk of humanity was perfectly willing to prey upon other humans, and that impulse is no less present today. A non-trivial portion of the population in even modern, first-world nations does prey upon other humans, and that state exists in a world where (broadly and generally speaking) resources are abundant and there are fairly robust protections for personal property and rights. Some people are driven to prey on others because of drugs, or financial hardship, or deprivation, but I also believe that some people are driven to prey just because they are dadholes who are inclined to do so. Disarming the populace does not protect us from those people. And that predator class exists even in "civilized" countries. Add some hardship, and the predator class would expand. If there were, say, some sort of major natural disaster, and food and water became scarce to the point of starvation and death, a neighbor who you have known and been friends with for 20 years would gladly bash your head in with a brick if it meant that their child didn't starve to death, and most of you would likely do the same if your own kids' lives were on the line. Modern society is a not a given, and there is no certainty that society will continue to advance in a peaceful course. Rather, I believe that humanity is under a constant struggle against barbarism and our baser natures.

The vast, vast majority of human history was the strong preying upon the weak, and a couple hundred years of democracy doesn't transform human nature. Do I hope that we will all progress toward a Star Trek-style future where everything on Earth is all peace, smiles, and kumbaya? Sure. Do I trust the certainty of that progress enough to divest myself of effective means to defend myself, or to let the government divest me of those means? Hell no.

Faftorial
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Postby Faftorial » Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:44 pm

There will always be guns in the wild no matter what. And therefore those inclined to follow the law shouldn't be unable to own and/or carry one to protect themselves from those disinclined to follow the law who would obtain one regardless of laws. Pretty simple
Good guy with a gun argument.

Shyster
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Postby Shyster » Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:57 pm

I had a long post all typed out, but I think I'll just revert to the summary and call it a day: I do not believe for a second that today's SCOTUS ruling will result in an increase in gun crime, never mind result in mass hysteria or turn American city streets into Tombstone writ large.

Agreed. The predictions that "There will be blood in the streets!" and "[Insert city or state name here] will become the Wild West!" have been around since the first modern concealed-carry statutes began to take off in the 1970s. They have never come true. And today's ruling will, for example, have no effect on something like 15 of the 20 largest cities in the country because they are in states that already have shall-issue carry, if not permitless carry. If Texans and (dear God) Floridians aren't dueling in the streets over every fender-bender, then I think Bostonians and Angelenos should be able to manage.

Faftorial
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Postby Faftorial » Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:19 pm


MWB
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Postby MWB » Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:50 pm

They are necessary, because human nature does not change.

I suspect that many of those on here would agree with the statement, "The Second Amendment, and firearms ownership, is an outdated relic of our barbarous past." I suspect that many of you may also feel that firearms ownership is actually a barrier to our progress towards a more peaceful and better future.

I disagree with both concepts. Throughout human history, a substantial chunk of humanity was perfectly willing to prey upon other humans, and that impulse is no less present today. A non-trivial portion of the population in even modern, first-world nations does prey upon other humans, and that state exists in a world where (broadly and generally speaking) resources are abundant and there are fairly robust protections for personal property and rights. Some people are driven to prey on others because of drugs, or financial hardship, or deprivation, but I also believe that some people are driven to prey just because they are dadholes who are inclined to do so. Disarming the populace does not protect us from those people. And that predator class exists even in "civilized" countries. Add some hardship, and the predator class would expand. If there were, say, some sort of major natural disaster, and food and water became scarce to the point of starvation and death, a neighbor who you have known and been friends with for 20 years would gladly bash your head in with a brick if it meant that their child didn't starve to death, and most of you would likely do the same if your own kids' lives were on the line. Modern society is a not a given, and there is no certainty that society will continue to advance in a peaceful course. Rather, I believe that humanity is under a constant struggle against barbarism and our baser natures.

The vast, vast majority of human history was the strong preying upon the weak, and a couple hundred years of democracy doesn't transform human nature. Do I hope that we will all progress toward a Star Trek-style future where everything on Earth is all peace, smiles, and kumbaya? Sure. Do I trust the certainty of that progress enough to divest myself of effective means to defend myself, or to let the government divest me of those means? Hell no.
I agree with some of this. However, how can other countries that have strict gun laws get by without the strong preying on the weak? Is it just that the US has more predators?

Pavel Bure
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Postby Pavel Bure » Thu Jun 23, 2022 9:12 pm

If anything the strong preying on the weak has gone from “I will physically harm you.” To “I’m a corporation and can crush you because you’re weak and poor.”

The majority of first world nations have demonstrated that a populace armed to the teeth is not needed and that the working class now needs protection from the rich.

mikey
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Postby mikey » Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:30 am

So...we should shoot a corporation in self-defense...?

Gaucho
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Postby Gaucho » Fri Jun 24, 2022 7:28 am

MTG needed a pardon three days after taking office. Is that some sort of record?

Pavel Bure
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Postby Pavel Bure » Fri Jun 24, 2022 7:31 am

So...we should shoot a corporation in self-defense...?
What you do is find their biggest building on your first day and then start blasting. That will show all the smaller and weaker buildings that you’re not to be messed with.

Kane
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Postby Kane » Fri Jun 24, 2022 7:34 am

Image

willeyeam
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Postby willeyeam » Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:16 am

We might not have done much with guns but at least we banned Juuls yesterday

mikey
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Postby mikey » Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:17 am

Right. So, we need guns to take back Juuls...

willeyeam
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Postby willeyeam » Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:21 am

good point

CBear3
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Postby CBear3 » Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:01 am

Prior to 2007, Missouri had far stricter gun laws, including a requirement that all handgun buyers obtain a gun permit by undergoing a background check in person at a sheriff’s office. After those regulations were repealed, Missouri’s gun homicide rate began to soar. Between 2008 and 2014, while the national rate declined by 11%, Missouri’s rose 18%, according to Daniel Webster, the director of the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research.
We've now gone permit-less carry and the first year saw a 20% increase in gun homicides and remained at that level in 2018.
There will always be guns in the wild no matter what. And therefore those inclined to follow the law shouldn't be unable to own and/or carry one to protect themselves from those disinclined to follow the law who would obtain one regardless of laws. Pretty simple
The problem with "if guns are illegal only criminals have guns" takes is that in a shall-issue world where gun ownership is your right until you disqualify yourself is that everybody started with a clean slate at one point. We will give you the ultimate tool that humans have perfected for centuries designed specifically for committing the worst moral offense that exists, with practically no burden on yourself to prove that you know what's at stake. Its sitting a kid in front of an outlet with a paperclip and hoping for the best.

Shyster's view of humankind is that we'll all kill each other over a transgression, the line just differs from one person to another. It means you're perfectly content breaking a few eggs for your omelet. Sorry you were murdered, but we had to give the guy a gun first to find out if he was murderer.

Meanwhile, Massachusetts's worst counties for gun homicide rates are on par with Florida's average.

So no, I don't think it'll turn into the Wild West. But I do think more people will die, all so people can feel like they're protected from the bad guys. And then when they see rising homicide rates they'll be even more afraid and buy more guns and silo themselves even more all because they fear "human nature."

Trip McNeely
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Postby Trip McNeely » Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:18 am

This country is a **** dump

willeyeam
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Postby willeyeam » Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:20 am

Roe v Wade officially overturned

Trip McNeely
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Postby Trip McNeely » Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:24 am

Nice how the justices obviously lied to congress

Stack the court. **** it

nocera
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Postby nocera » Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:30 am



We're doomed.

Troy Loney
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Postby Troy Loney » Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:30 am

Partisan hacks with law degrees from Yale are still partisan hacks

Gaucho
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Postby Gaucho » Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:40 am

Clearly Thomas is among the first to be shot after the revolution.

RonnieFranchise
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Postby RonnieFranchise » Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:46 am

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/natio ... 2206200088
Abortion remains legal in Pennsylvania, as regulated by the Commonwealth's Abortion Control Act.
Till Mastrumpano gets elected.

RonnieFranchise
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Postby RonnieFranchise » Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:47 am



We're doomed.
But hey, we get to keep the guns.

Viva la Ben
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Postby Viva la Ben » Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:47 am

More women are going to die because of today’s ruling. Removing the civil rights of homosexuals is next.

Dickie Dunn
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Postby Dickie Dunn » Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:51 am

Thomas should have been aborted

MWB
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Postby MWB » Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:54 am

Yeah, the more I think about what shyster wrote, the less I agree with it. A substantial chunk of humanity is willing to prey on others? I don’t believe this is true, although substantial is a subjective term and there are many levels of what would be considered preying on others. Preying on someone in non violent ways, ways that a gun would do absolutely no good, is by far the most common method.

And then taking it to the end times extreme, and what we’d do to our friend if we needed to feed our child…. In what plausible scenario would it happen that you have a choice between killing a neighbor and feeding a child? If you’re at that point, that means you’re screwed either way, and most people wouldn’t choose to kill another person.

I just feel that take on humanity, and the take on the typical gun owner is really out of whack with reality. I could certainly be wrong though.

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