Politics And Current Events

NAN
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Postby NAN » Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:12 pm

I don't like the attitude that "there will be mistakes". When a life could end because of your mistake, there is no margin for mistakes. Penalties for making mistakes should be severe, not swept under the rug. I also feel officers should be compensated for the great risk that they do put themselves in. They are WAY underpaid for what they do. Train them more. It's going to take investment. This problem has been building for years. It's going to take effort to change.
Show me one human being that's perfect, whether they are a doctor, accountant, officer, etc.

There will be mistakes. You put in procedures to mitigate them, and punish/hold the person accountable depending on the severity of the mistake.

I do agree that the police should not police themselves though. You need an independent group.

Beveridge
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Postby Beveridge » Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:15 pm

I don’t disagree with that. But as we know, every single thing Trump does is to create this division to somehow benefit himself. There is less than a zero chance that trump had a conversation with any officials in Oregon about this move before the DHS made it. This is really important piece of the argument for me. You can’t argue for states rights and then be cool with the federal government doing this. The right channels need to be used to make government work. And we know that there is zero chance the administration did that
I agree. His response has been poor from the start, and if he would have went about this in a more methodical, well-thought out way it probably would have been much better received.
Kids... From now on there are three ways of doing things: the right way, the wrong way, and the Max Power Donald Trump way.

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Postby MalkinIsMyHomeboy » Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:22 pm

I don't like the attitude that "there will be mistakes". When a life could end because of your mistake, there is no margin for mistakes. Penalties for making mistakes should be severe, not swept under the rug. I also feel officers should be compensated for the great risk that they do put themselves in. They are WAY underpaid for what they do. Train them more. It's going to take investment. This problem has been building for years. It's going to take effort to change.
mistakes are one thing but intentionally flagrant actions is the bigger problem

Chauvin kneeling on Floyd's neck wasn't a mistake; it was a intentional act. I don't think Chauvin thought he was going to kill Floyd but the point is mute; he made a conscious decision that was unreasonable and led to Floyd's death

Mistakes are a lot more complicated. The cop that killed the drunk dude in the Wendy's parking lot...I'd classify that as a mistake. A lot of it was in the moment, high adrenaline, fight or flight stuff and he shot his gun when the situation didn't exactly call for it. I don't think the cop should be left off the hook but that situation is a lot more understandable in my opinion.

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Postby faftorial » Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:34 pm


NAN
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Postby NAN » Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:04 pm

I don't like the attitude that "there will be mistakes". When a life could end because of your mistake, there is no margin for mistakes. Penalties for making mistakes should be severe, not swept under the rug. I also feel officers should be compensated for the great risk that they do put themselves in. They are WAY underpaid for what they do. Train them more. It's going to take investment. This problem has been building for years. It's going to take effort to change.
mistakes are one thing but intentionally flagrant actions is the bigger problem

Chauvin kneeling on Floyd's neck wasn't a mistake; it was a intentional act. I don't think Chauvin thought he was going to kill Floyd but the point is mute; he made a conscious decision that was unreasonable and led to Floyd's death

Mistakes are a lot more complicated. The cop that killed the drunk dude in the Wendy's parking lot...I'd classify that as a mistake. A lot of it was in the moment, high adrenaline, fight or flight stuff and he shot his gun when the situation didn't exactly call for it. I don't think the cop should be left off the hook but that situation is a lot more understandable in my opinion.
:fist:

Freddy Rumsen
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Postby Freddy Rumsen » Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:07 pm


Troy Loney
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Postby Troy Loney » Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:11 pm


mistakes are one thing but intentionally flagrant actions is the bigger problem

Chauvin kneeling on Floyd's neck wasn't a mistake; it was a intentional act. I don't think Chauvin thought he was going to kill Floyd but the point is mute; he made a conscious decision that was unreasonable and led to Floyd's death

Mistakes are a lot more complicated. The cop that killed the drunk dude in the Wendy's parking lot...I'd classify that as a mistake. A lot of it was in the moment, high adrenaline, fight or flight stuff and he shot his gun when the situation didn't exactly call for it. I don't think the cop should be left off the hook but that situation is a lot more understandable in my opinion.
The Chauvin thing was so categorically different that it probably is important to nail down the necessary elements of reform. Chauvin might be a homicidal sociopath considering that disgusting indifference to human life, that thing in GA was a matter of policing tactics, and reasonable people could disagree about. In these situations, there are definitely factors that make the officer's actions defendable. For me, this gets wrapped up into the warrior cop persona that some of these cops adopt and that is fundamental to the reforms that are necessary to improve policing across the country.

Which to me arrives at the point that should be argued. If you are someone that see's that shooting in GA and says "I'm content with how that situation unfolded" than I think you are a psycho and irredeemable. If you are someone that looks at it, agrees that it is unfortunate, but does not view the circumstance as punishable, or not an indications of questionable policing approach, I think we can at least have a discussion about why we think what we do.

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Postby CBear3 » Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:18 pm

Two posts I agree with, Rand & Troy. A sentence I never thought I'd type.

tifosi77
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Postby tifosi77 » Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:20 pm

Esper concerned over federal agents dressed like military troops in U.S. cities

To reiterate: The bigger problem imo is not Trump sending in anonymous federal LEO's in full assault kit and stuffing people into unmarked vans. it is the guys at the end of the spear that are executing the mission unflinchingly. I think all it would take is one line-level commander to say, "This is an illegal order" - on the record - and we'd be done with it. There may be another guy willing to step into the void and immediately take his place, but I believe that if there was at least one voice sounding off on this from a rank-and-file perspective, it would be very helpful.

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Postby Morkle » Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:28 pm

The photo shows a crowd of helmeted protesters, gathered around a downed police officer desperately clutching his nightstick. A caption below, written in ALL CAPS to maximize the effect, warns of “CHAOS & VIOLENCE.”

It is shock advertising at its most routine, designed to stoke fear and provoke a retreat to the safe and familiar. It popped up on Facebook on Tuesday and, as with so many whoppers of the Trump era, it’s also a lie.

This image that President Donald Trump’s reelection campaign desperately wants you to believe is of anarchy in a “Democrat-run” U.S. city is ... actually a photo from 2014 of a pro-democracy protest in Ukraine.

Jesse Lehrich, a former Hillary Clinton spokesperson, pointed out the misrepresentation on Twitter, noting that the Trump campaign seemingly downloaded the original file from Wikipedia, which clearly states it was taken in Kyiv, Ukraine, in 2014

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Postby Kaiser » Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:37 pm

but there are a good amount of legitimate Marxists throughout the political system
I see this term thrown around a lot as well. What is a legitimate Marxist to you? What are you meaning here?
I agree that it's overused, but there is a pretty good chunk of the left wing that has no interest in equality of opportunity. Rather, they want equality of results to be enforced by the state. In their political worldview, *no one* should ever be able get wealthy (or even upper middle class). A lot of these rioters you are seeing are not out there because of BLM, they are out there because they are trying their own piss poor attempt at fomenting class/cultural revolution.

And my point was, there are a lot of politicians that are, at a minimum, sympathetic to that worldview. No, I'm not talking about Pelosi, Obama, etc. The Democratic establishment is not "Marxist" in any way, shape, or form. I'm talking about people at the city and state level, where it's easier to elect political radicals.
After this explanation, I agree. I doubt any of them would use "marxist" to describe themselves, though. It doesn't mean they won't act that way, but these aren't people willing to create anything new.
Sawant is our most "Radical" city politician, but she just exposed herself as a shameless ambulance chaser. I don't think it's as big a problem as the reason for the riots or the gearing up to fight border cops.

tifosi77
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Postby tifosi77 » Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:44 pm

The photo shows a crowd of helmeted protesters, gathered around a downed police officer desperately clutching his nightstick. A caption below, written in ALL CAPS to maximize the effect, warns of “CHAOS & VIOLENCE.”

It is shock advertising at its most routine, designed to stoke fear and provoke a retreat to the safe and familiar. It popped up on Facebook on Tuesday and, as with so many whoppers of the Trump era, it’s also a lie.

This image that President Donald Trump’s reelection campaign desperately wants you to believe is of anarchy in a “Democrat-run” U.S. city is ... actually a photo from 2014 of a pro-democracy protest in Ukraine.

Jesse Lehrich, a former Hillary Clinton spokesperson, pointed out the misrepresentation on Twitter, noting that the Trump campaign seemingly downloaded the original file from Wikipedia, which clearly states it was taken in Kyiv, Ukraine, in 2014
lol

You can tell it's fake because the cop is ID'd. Also, his insignia is in Ukrainian Cyrillic. So that's fun.

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Postby Freddy Rumsen » Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:04 pm


MrKennethTKangaroo
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Postby MrKennethTKangaroo » Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:12 pm

much like the hillary presidency, i'm not sure anyone asked for that.

Troy Loney
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Postby Troy Loney » Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:26 pm

Didn't Hulu follow her around last year and make some crap documentary where she complained about how it was everyone else's fault she lost to Trump?

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Postby Kaiser » Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:27 pm

How about just let the feds handle it the way they always do: by not sending a unilateral force when the local authorities don’t request it? If the governor or mayor requests the national guard, then the federal government steps in. But I’m not sure how the **** people don’t see this as Trump trying to create another **** division between the anarchists and his law and order platform?
I get what you are saying, but I think the issue in this situation specifically is that you have a city government (and hell, even a state government too) that not only has refused to crack down on the widespread crime and destruction being wrought by these rioters, but in many cases they actually support what they are doing. I know the C-word is thrown around recklessly by right-wing commentators, but there are a good amount of legitimate Marxists throughout the political system in both OR and WA. How long are you willing to let the inmates run the asylum? Until the whole city is destroyed?
There has been damage to one building in Portland in 50 days. Stop falling for this bullshit. The only reason it flared up is because these dadholes came to "calm it down".

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Postby Beveridge » Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:28 pm

Does that alternate history involve Biden running for president in 2016 and beating Trump and not letting Hilary run because of the Dibs system in the DNC after she couldn't pull off the primaries in 2008?

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Postby MalkinIsMyHomeboy » Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:33 pm

Image

MalkinIsMyHomeboy
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Postby MalkinIsMyHomeboy » Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:35 pm

oo interesting

it isn't "if Hillary won", it's
Hulu has optioned the rights to Curtis Sittenfeld’s alternative history book “Rodham,” which takes place in a world in which Hillary Rodham never married Bill Clinton.
which I still have less than 0% interest in watching

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Postby Morkle » Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:36 pm

Jesus. Or maybe she was just awful.

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Postby Morkle » Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:36 pm

oo interesting

it isn't "if Hillary won", it's
Hulu has optioned the rights to Curtis Sittenfeld’s alternative history book “Rodham,” which takes place in a world in which Hillary Rodham never married Bill Clinton.
which I still have less than 0% interest in watching
That sounds 10000123012312039132109% boring.

tifosi77
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Postby tifosi77 » Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:36 pm

The entire DNC was also too smart to realize what trash fish HRC was as a candidate in the fist place.

Troy Loney
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Postby Troy Loney » Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:41 pm

oo interesting

it isn't "if Hillary won", it's
Hulu has optioned the rights to Curtis Sittenfeld’s alternative history book “Rodham,” which takes place in a world in which Hillary Rodham never married Bill Clinton.
which I still have less than 0% interest in watching
Oh god, Hillary fan fic, that's even worse than an alternative history.

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Postby count2infinity » Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:43 pm

Who are they making this for? It's clear that no one wants it...

Troy Loney
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Postby Troy Loney » Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:44 pm

The entire DNC was also too smart to realize what trash fish HRC was as a candidate in the fist place.
I blame cowards like Warren, Biden and Booker. They all had name recognition and could have challenged her in the primary. I don't know why, but I think Biden declining to run was Obama's fault, probably some sort of understanding that Clinton was next in line. I am just glad that Booker and Warren have been soundly rejected by the voters and will likely not challenge for the presidency again after being such hacks in 2016.

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