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Freddy Rumsen
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Postby Freddy Rumsen » Fri May 29, 2020 9:56 am

"All is well"


Viva la Ben
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Postby Viva la Ben » Fri May 29, 2020 9:57 am

Here's the thing about "I'm just going to use this as an opportunity to break **** and steal things:"

Between Castile and Floyd, if you're a black person in Minneapolis you would have every right to think that any encounter with the police could turn deadly. Society is piling on the ways that systemic racism has the world stacked against you. Voting for changes hasn't helped, peacefully protesting hasn't helped, and frankly in both cases there's segments of the population that flat out mock those efforts.

So yeah, if society is going to keep holding me down, why should I watch out for my "neighbor." I'm going to get mine, because society keeps reinforcing that my life doesn't have the same value and they can take it with impunity.

I don't agree with it. I'm more of an aspiring pacifist. But I can empathize with the mindset. I don't think looting and violence is to send a message for change, I think it's saying "If the world is going to eff me, then eff the world." And you don't have to agree with that world view, but I don't think you can understand the situation or try to improve it without recognizing that those feelings exist and are a rational reaction.
Rational reactions don’t consist of hurting your fellow citizens and/or their livelihoods.
The feelings are a rational reaction.

And there's all this talk about uprooting the tyranny of the government and the need for the 2nd Amendment to protect you. Isn't that what we're watching? You have the state placing your life as less than somebody else's. You don't have the same right to life and liberty that those of the state do. So isn't this that rebellion?
:thumb:

Freddy Rumsen
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Postby Freddy Rumsen » Fri May 29, 2020 9:58 am

Here's the thing about "I'm just going to use this as an opportunity to break **** and steal things:"

Between Castile and Floyd, if you're a black person in Minneapolis you would have every right to think that any encounter with the police could turn deadly. Society is piling on the ways that systemic racism has the world stacked against you. Voting for changes hasn't helped, peacefully protesting hasn't helped, and frankly in both cases there's segments of the population that flat out mock those efforts.

So yeah, if society is going to keep holding me down, why should I watch out for my "neighbor." I'm going to get mine, because society keeps reinforcing that my life doesn't have the same value and they can take it with impunity.

I don't agree with it. I'm more of an aspiring pacifist. But I can empathize with the mindset. I don't think looting and violence is to send a message for change, I think it's saying "If the world is going to eff me, then eff the world." And you don't have to agree with that world view, but I don't think you can understand the situation or try to improve it without recognizing that those feelings exist and are a rational reaction.
Rational reactions don’t consist of hurting your fellow citizens and/or their livelihoods.
The feelings are a rational reaction.

And there's all this talk about uprooting the tyranny of the government and the need for the 2nd Amendment to protect you. Isn't that what we're watching? You have the state placing your life as less than somebody else's. You don't have the same right to life and liberty that those of the state do. So isn't this that rebellion?
:thumb:
Hence the need for all of us to be armed.

The government is never to be trusted.

Yet people want the government to have more and more Authority and Power on both sides of the political Spectrum.

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Postby Troy Loney » Fri May 29, 2020 10:01 am

Rioting is bad, i think it shows there’s a lot of nihilism mixed in with the anti police sentiment.

That said, it’s insane how our legal system is fundamentally incapable of dealing with police brutality. As stated above, fixing that problem would not appease all the rioters, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t fix the issues with our justice system.

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Postby Trip McNeely » Fri May 29, 2020 10:04 am

Rioting is bad, i think it shows there’s a lot of nihilism mixed in with the anti police sentiment.

That said, it’s insane how our legal system is fundamentally incapable of dealing with police brutality. As stated above, fixing that problem would not appease all the rioters, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t fix the issues with our justice system.
People are always worried about the welfare of cops being put into the penal system, which, yea is definitely an issue. Then throw them into a white collar jail then

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Postby AuthorTony » Fri May 29, 2020 10:05 am

As usual, and this is no exception, I care much less about these types of ideas for this specific instance, but care much more about the slippery slope and what it causes...your idea is: why don't we profile?

And, again, I'm listening to that idea...but where does it go? We "normally" elected Trump...profile voters? We have people that **** around with kids as teachers...can we profile for that? Is it just police? Does it extend to security guards, bouncers? Do we risk putting out a bunch of puss-cakes that can't handle an intense situation and think clearly as a result...?

Way down the line, you run the risk of having the Futurama-style job chip based on your genetic makeup...where a job is picked for you based on your brain ability...that's a long way to go for this I know, but if your solution works...
I don't think every possible solution needs to be looked at through slippery slope glasses. Police officers are public employees who are already screened prior to their hiring and whose mental health plays a huge role in their fitness for their profession. This doesn't have anything to do with private companies, voting, etc. and propping up such things is a bit of a straw man.

There are plenty of non "puss cakes" who can handle the stress of the job without doing it in a bullying or aggressive fashion. I have 2 cousins on the PA state police force and I wouldn't f with either of them. I'd also be wildly surprised if either of them acted out in violence unless they were attacked first.
Last edited by AuthorTony on Fri May 29, 2020 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

nocera
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Postby nocera » Fri May 29, 2020 10:06 am

The responses in this thread are clearly from a perspective of privilege. You had a large group of very angry people which quickly turned into an angry mob. And mob mentality is dangerous. But to say **** like "well, they just undercut their whole message and burned through sympathy" is ridiculous and ignores the reason for their anger.

Our president tweeted about good people on both sides, or good people being angry about a lock down and going into government buildings with assault rifles. He didn't tweet anything about this until he decided to use the word "thugs" and talk about shooting citizens. A peaceful protest to police violence (taking a knee) was met with outrage and calls for termination. When peaceful protests don't work, people get angry and lash out.

Morkle
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Postby Morkle » Fri May 29, 2020 10:09 am

I think part of the issue here is thinking that the federales are somehow above all the same nonsense as the local police.

It'd be like Kodiak bears overseeing the instruction of gray wolves.
Oh I agree with this too, the oversight scenario would be a wish in an ideal world.

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Postby CBear3 » Fri May 29, 2020 10:09 am

Here's the thing about "I'm just going to use this as an opportunity to break **** and steal things:"

Between Castile and Floyd, if you're a black person in Minneapolis you would have every right to think that any encounter with the police could turn deadly. Society is piling on the ways that systemic racism has the world stacked against you. Voting for changes hasn't helped, peacefully protesting hasn't helped, and frankly in both cases there's segments of the population that flat out mock those efforts.

So yeah, if society is going to keep holding me down, why should I watch out for my "neighbor." I'm going to get mine, because society keeps reinforcing that my life doesn't have the same value and they can take it with impunity.

I don't agree with it. I'm more of an aspiring pacifist. But I can empathize with the mindset. I don't think looting and violence is to send a message for change, I think it's saying "If the world is going to eff me, then eff the world." And you don't have to agree with that world view, but I don't think you can understand the situation or try to improve it without recognizing that those feelings exist and are a rational reaction.
I think I get what you are writing, but I am not sure about the bolded part.

In Sweden, I think we have a destructive cycle. Some people in bad neighborhoods are burning cars and then attacking (e.g. throwing rocks) policemen and firefighters when they appear. When asked why, they say that they are upset with their situation and that the police does not treat them with respect.
I wonder if there is a correlation between you throwing rocks at the police has anything to do with that you are not treated with respect? And you would have to be a saint and/or perhaps a bit naive as a policeman to not be careful with suspects when you are outnumbered in neighborhoods where you are not welcomed...
Right, and in my mind you can't force people to respect you so I don't see looting/violence as an effective means to that end. The trick I believe is being policed by your peer group. I remember in the aftermath of Ferguson a lot was made of the racial makeup of the police force was nearly the inverse of what the community was.

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Postby MalkinIsMyHomeboy » Fri May 29, 2020 10:10 am

The responses in this thread are clearly from a perspective of privilege. You had a large group of very angry people which quickly turned into an angry mob. And mob mentality is dangerous. But to say **** like "well, they just undercut their whole message and burned through sympathy" is ridiculous and ignores the reason for their anger.

Our president tweeted about good people on both sides, or good people being angry about a lock down and going into government buildings with assault rifles. He didn't tweet anything about this until he decided to use the word "thugs" and talk about shooting citizens. A peaceful protest to police violence (taking a knee) was met with outrage and calls for termination. When peaceful protests don't work, people get angry and lash out.
of course we're posting from a perspective of privilege. You are too. It doesn't invalidate our perspective.

nocera
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Postby nocera » Fri May 29, 2020 10:12 am

It does, though. And yes, I am. But I'm also recognizing that privilege and acknowledging that I have zero idea what it's like to have to live in a country with systemic racism that continually holds down and in this case murders people of my race simply for being my race. I can sympathize with their anger but I can't empathize. And I certainly will not write it off because protesting turned to rioting.

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Postby MR25 » Fri May 29, 2020 10:15 am

No, but you're (general you) using your perspective and privilege to invalidate the perspective and feelings of those protesting because they aren't protesting how "you" want them to.

(This was in response to MIMH not nocera)

People didnt like it when Kaepernick kneeled.

People dont like it when protestors march peacefully.

People dont like it when peaceful protests turn into riots.

There's a fairly clear progression there. The goalposts keep moving as to what people will accept as OK for protesting, and imo that's creating a lot of the anger being expressed.
Last edited by MR25 on Fri May 29, 2020 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

mikey
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Postby mikey » Fri May 29, 2020 10:17 am

As usual, and this is no exception, I care much less about these types of ideas for this specific instance, but care much more about the slippery slope and what it causes...your idea is: why don't we profile?

And, again, I'm listening to that idea...but where does it go? We "normally" elected Trump...profile voters? We have people that **** around with kids as teachers...can we profile for that? Is it just police? Does it extend to security guards, bouncers? Do we risk putting out a bunch of puss-cakes that can't handle an intense situation and think clearly as a result...?

Way down the line, you run the risk of having the Futurama-style job chip based on your genetic makeup...where a job is picked for you based on your brain ability...that's a long way to go for this I know, but if your solution works...
I don't think every possible solution needs to be looked at through slippery slope glasses. Police officers are public employees who are already screened prior to their hiring and whose mental health plays a huge role in their fitness for their profession. This doesn't have anything to do with private companies, voting, etc. and propping up such things is a bit of a straw man.

There are plenty of non "puss cakes" who can handle the stress of the job without doing it in a bullying or aggressive fashion. I have 2 cousins on the PA state police force and I wouldn't f with either of them. I'd also be wildly surprised if either of them acted out in violence unless they were attacked first.
Fair enough. For the record, this was a legitimate response by me. I was legitimately curious as I'm interested in the discussion... :thumb:

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Postby dodint » Fri May 29, 2020 10:17 am

The responses in this thread are clearly from a perspective of privilege. You had a large group of very angry people which quickly turned into an angry mob. And mob mentality is dangerous. But to say **** like "well, they just undercut their whole message and burned through sympathy" is ridiculous and ignores the reason for their anger.
I think being dismissive of them jettisoning that ideological capital is just as ridiculous and ignorant. The activists can't have it both ways, and the hyper-destructive path is going to have consequences in perception. I have not seen any confirmed reports, just conspiracy level stuff on twitter/reddit, but the reports of plain clothes police inciting further destruction highlights that the mechanism is important. We're talking about burning auto parts stores now and have drifted away from Floyd.

I'm still intensely sympathetic to their issue, but now it has to share space with some large scale intense imagery of destructive mob action and that won't advance their issue.

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Postby skullman80 » Fri May 29, 2020 10:18 am

It does, though. And yes, I am. But I'm also recognizing that privilege and acknowledging that I have zero idea what it's like to have to live in a country with systemic racism that continually holds down and in this case murders people of my race simply for being my race. I can sympathize with their anger but I can't empathize. And I certainly will not write it off because protesting turned to rioting.
:thumb: :thumb:

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Postby willeyeam » Fri May 29, 2020 10:19 am

Putting myself in their shoes for a minute, where has peaceful protest gotten them?

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Postby mikey » Fri May 29, 2020 10:21 am

The responses in this thread are clearly from a perspective of privilege. You had a large group of very angry people which quickly turned into an angry mob. And mob mentality is dangerous. But to say **** like "well, they just undercut their whole message and burned through sympathy" is ridiculous and ignores the reason for their anger.

Our president tweeted about good people on both sides, or good people being angry about a lock down and going into government buildings with assault rifles. He didn't tweet anything about this until he decided to use the word "thugs" and talk about shooting citizens. A peaceful protest to police violence (taking a knee) was met with outrage and calls for termination. When peaceful protests don't work, people get angry and lash out.
This reads like an automated message...I feel like most of the discussion this morning has been done in good faith looking for a solution. I think most people dislike the wanton destruction of private (and public) property...but there's been more "well, ****, what the hell do we do about the source of this outburst...?"

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Postby mikey » Fri May 29, 2020 10:22 am

Here's the thing about "I'm just going to use this as an opportunity to break **** and steal things:"

Between Castile and Floyd, if you're a black person in Minneapolis you would have every right to think that any encounter with the police could turn deadly. Society is piling on the ways that systemic racism has the world stacked against you. Voting for changes hasn't helped, peacefully protesting hasn't helped, and frankly in both cases there's segments of the population that flat out mock those efforts.

So yeah, if society is going to keep holding me down, why should I watch out for my "neighbor." I'm going to get mine, because society keeps reinforcing that my life doesn't have the same value and they can take it with impunity.

I don't agree with it. I'm more of an aspiring pacifist. But I can empathize with the mindset. I don't think looting and violence is to send a message for change, I think it's saying "If the world is going to eff me, then eff the world." And you don't have to agree with that world view, but I don't think you can understand the situation or try to improve it without recognizing that those feelings exist and are a rational reaction.
Rational reactions don’t consist of hurting your fellow citizens and/or their livelihoods.
The feelings are a rational reaction.

And there's all this talk about uprooting the tyranny of the government and the need for the 2nd Amendment to protect you. Isn't that what we're watching? You have the state placing your life as less than somebody else's. You don't have the same right to life and liberty that those of the state do. So isn't this that rebellion?
That's a bingo.

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Postby AuthorTony » Fri May 29, 2020 10:22 am

Fair enough. For the record, this was a legitimate response by me. I was legitimately curious as I'm interested in the discussion... :thumb:
:fist:

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Postby count2infinity » Fri May 29, 2020 10:23 am

Putting myself in their shoes for a minute, where has peaceful protest gotten them?
Image

Freddy Rumsen
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Postby Freddy Rumsen » Fri May 29, 2020 10:23 am

No, but you're (general you) using your perspective and privilege to invalidate the perspective and feelings of those protesting because they aren't protesting how "you" want them to.

(This was in response to MIMH not nocera)

People didnt like it when Kaepernick kneeled.

People dont like it when protestors march peacefully.

People dont like it when peaceful protests turn into riots.

There's a fairly clear progression there. The goalposts keep moving as to what people will accept as OK for protesting, and imo that's creating a lot of the anger being expressed.
It's because Kaepernick was clearly a doofus looking to make money off an angle as his athletic career was dying. Hence his "discovering" of this issue when he was falling behind Blaine Gabbert on the depth chart and subsequent contract with Nike.

Lumping him in with this is a red herring.

A question is why does this keep happening in big midwestern cities?
Last edited by Freddy Rumsen on Fri May 29, 2020 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby count2infinity » Fri May 29, 2020 10:24 am

It's because Kaepernick was clearly a doofus looking to make money off an angle as his athletic career was dying.
There's a hot take for the day...

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Postby grunthy » Fri May 29, 2020 10:25 am

No, but you're (general you) using your perspective and privilege to invalidate the perspective and feelings of those protesting because they aren't protesting how "you" want them to.

(This was in response to MIMH not nocera)

People didnt like it when Kaepernick kneeled.

People dont like it when protestors march peacefully.

People dont like it when peaceful protests turn into riots.

There's a fairly clear progression there. The goalposts keep moving as to what people will accept as OK for protesting, and imo that's creating a lot of the anger being expressed.

There is a massive difference between not liking what protestors are protesting on and not liking that people protest. You can be for a person's right to protest but think their protest is stupid.

The people that were protesting this issue have every right to be mad and want change. I respect the hell out of the people that kept their anger in check and kept peacefully protesting and didn't destroy other people's livelihoods that had nothing to do with what happened. I do not respect people that turn to violence on innocent people. When fighting back against tyranny you don't destroy your fellow innocent citizens livelihoods.

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Postby mikey » Fri May 29, 2020 10:25 am

Let's not go down the Kaepernick road...it's a dumb road to take and distracting in a negative way to the discussion...

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Postby Freddy Rumsen » Fri May 29, 2020 10:26 am

It's because Kaepernick was clearly a doofus looking to make money off an angle as his athletic career was dying.
There's a hot take for the day...
It's also verifiably true to people actually paying attention.

It's like people who take Shaun White seriously.

The same nonsense happens on the right when some random actor or actress on the downside of their career all of a sudden discovers conservative politics to stay relevant.

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