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Freddy Rumsen
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Postby Freddy Rumsen » Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:35 pm

Not sure I need to defend myself, but I do not speak out of ignorance and have clinical experience in these matters.

MWB
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Postby MWB » Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:42 pm

Defend yourself against what?

Do you have links to your information or care to elaborate on it?

Freddy Rumsen
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Postby Freddy Rumsen » Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:51 pm

Defend yourself against what?

Do you have links to your information or care to elaborate on it?
My original comment was more flippant than necessary.

I do not have "links" to personal experience, unfortunately.

obhave
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Postby obhave » Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:53 pm

Freddy Rumsen, since you say you come from clinical experience, I wonder what your thoughts on this article are?
http://www.psmag.com/health-and-behavio ... -dsm-68308

Freddy Rumsen
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Postby Freddy Rumsen » Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:01 am

Freddy Rumsen, since you say you come from clinical experience, I wonder what your thoughts on this article are?
http://www.psmag.com/health-and-behavio ... -dsm-68308
Interesting and worthwhile.

Like many, I consider the DSM to be at best a "guide" rather than a "rule", especially since the DSM has become rather malleable based on considerations outside "science" in a broad sense.

Sarcastic
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Postby Sarcastic » Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:09 am

My guess is that a trans person would disagree on that last part tif.
There's no question they would, but that's where personal opinion comes in, of course. I do think that in general, it is far easier for people to fully accept LGB as normal human sexual inclinations than the T part of things. LGB is "mainstream" at this point...but stuff like this illustrates my point:

http://genderqueeries.tumblr.com/identities
Trigender: Someone who has three genders, either at once or moving between them.
Gender Variant: Someone whose gender is varied, either in a fluid or static way.
Genderfluid (or fluid): Someone who is genderfluid moves between genders; their gender is not something that they or anyone can pin down and define.
Aliagender: Someone who defines their gender as ‘other’ or apart from existing genders.
(WTF does this even mean?)
Pangender: Someone who is all genders. This, by literal definition, includes culturally specific genders and is problematic and probably appropriative.
I feel like L, G, and B are pretty clear-cut. T starts to cross into wackadoodle territory for me. I tend to agree that mental illness (whatever it is) tends to be far more concurrent with "transgenderism" than anything else.
Used to be they looked between your legs to determine what gender you are. Time will come we'll think of Split-Personality people as multi-gender if one is male, one is female. I don't care either way but it's all kinda crazy to me.

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Postby Reveutopique » Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:44 am

I don't get why you guys think being TG is a mental disorder.

Wiki: Transgender is the state of one's gender identity or gender expression not matching one's assigned sex.


Meanwhile...

A mental disorder, also called a mental illness or psychiatric disorder, is a mental or behavioral pattern or anomaly that causes either suffering or an impaired ability to function in ordinary life (disability), and which is not a developmental or social norm.

Are we really humoring POVs from the 1950s?

Person A's lack of understanding does not equate to Person B having a mental illness.

In doing that person A suggests there is something unnatural about person B.
But the thing is, person B exists and isn't hurting anyone. They may be hurting as a result of how they are treated by person A.

Do you guys not listen to the SMITHS?!

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Postby Algernon » Tue Apr 21, 2015 4:24 am

Freddy Rumsen, since you say you come from clinical experience, I wonder what your thoughts on this article are?
http://www.psmag.com/health-and-behavio ... -dsm-68308
Interesting and worthwhile.

Like many, I consider the DSM to be at best a "guide" rather than a "rule", especially since the DSM has become rather malleable based on considerations outside "science" in a broad sense.
This. The dsm name for some of these disorders doesn't even really make sense.

Most of the stuff in the dsm are just symptoms that have multiple physiological causes


On a personal level, I don't see how the label of gender dysphoria as a disorder would be all that heavy

It's no different than bipolar disorder or borderline personality disorder or schizophrenia

I don't even see how that's offensive

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Postby Algernon » Tue Apr 21, 2015 4:27 am

I don't get why you guys think being TG is a mental disorder.

Wiki: Transgender is the state of one's gender identity or gender expression not matching one's assigned sex.


Meanwhile...

A mental disorder, also called a mental illness or psychiatric disorder, is a mental or behavioral pattern or anomaly that causes either suffering or an impaired ability to function in ordinary life (disability), and which is not a developmental or social norm.

Are we really humoring POVs from the 1950s?

Person A's lack of understanding does not equate to Person B having a mental illness.

In doing that person A suggests there is something unnatural about person B.
But the thing is, person B exists and isn't hurting anyone. They may be hurting as a result of how they are treated by person A.

Do you guys not listen to the SMITHS?!
I'd say identifying with the opposite gender is a pretty big behavior anomaly

Reveutopique
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Postby Reveutopique » Tue Apr 21, 2015 4:46 am

Why?

Algernon
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Postby Algernon » Tue Apr 21, 2015 5:08 am

Why?
Being ill or having a disorder doesn't make you "corrupted" "inferior"


Idk it just seems like TG people are fighting some angsty quixotic war of semantics


Fwiw I'm diagnosed and unmedicated borderline and bipolar

I'm functioning. I don't care if people understand or not because I just don't tell anyone.

*shrug* it's whatever

Freddy Rumsen
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Postby Freddy Rumsen » Tue Apr 21, 2015 9:55 am

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/04/22/us ... ?referrer=
Mrs. Clinton pointed at the top category and said the economy required a “toppling” of the wealthiest 1 percent, according to several people who were briefed on Mrs. Clinton’s policy discussions but could not discuss private conversations for attribution.
Yes, Mrs. $300,000/speech. Tell us about those awful 1%'ers

Factorial
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Postby Factorial » Tue Apr 21, 2015 10:29 am

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/04/22/us ... ?referrer=
Mrs. Clinton pointed at the top category and said the economy required a “toppling” of the wealthiest 1 percent, according to several people who were briefed on Mrs. Clinton’s policy discussions but could not discuss private conversations for attribution.
Yes, Mrs. $300,000/speech. Tell us about those awful 1%'ers
Where did she say they were awful? If she's like me she thinks they, including her, should pay more in taxes.

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Postby shmenguin » Tue Apr 21, 2015 10:37 am

whether being transgender is innate or acquired matters a little, but it's not the whole story. as i understand it, you need to go through a series of psychiatric evaluations to have the procedure done. so the commitment to the process is established (in theory). and from a public health perspective, catering to the emotional needs of possibly the most suicidal demographic in existence doesn't really seem like a BAD idea.

people who like slippery slope arguments might say, "well if someone doesn't like their nose or their bewbs, should we cater to that, too?". and to that i'd say it's an apples and oranges thing, and that should be obvious.

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Postby MWB » Tue Apr 21, 2015 10:49 am

Defend yourself against what?

Do you have links to your information or care to elaborate on it?
My original comment was more flippant than necessary.

I do not have "links" to personal experience, unfortunately.
That's why I wondered if you cared to elaborate, if it is personal experience. I'm interested to read what people have to say on the matter, as I know very little about it.

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Postby CBear3 » Tue Apr 21, 2015 10:51 am

I don't mean this to be offensive, humorous maybe, but not offensive.
I always knew growing up that I was supposed to be a horse jockey. I could feel at one with the horse, loved the speed. Unfortunately, I grew up to be 6 foot 200 lbs. I've been trapped in this body my whole life, and its time to come clean
:rolleyes:

Listen, I can dress up in silks and parade around town with a whip and if some other guy wants to put on high heels and a skirt because he loves Shania Twain, go for it. Bullying period is wrong, but if you present a unique visual you will get an extra look. Shouldn't mean you're harmed in any way, shouldn't make you a target for hatred.
The problem isn't with transgender identifying, it's with people believing that what's outside must conform to some archaic stereotype. Male and Female are defined by chromosomes which manifest themselves as sex organs, that's it. It does not determine what activities you enjoy, what jobs you pursue, or what you wear.

Locker rooms and bathrooms are defined by sex organs. If I'm a man dressed in drag I should be using the penis bathroom. I can wear a tennis skirt but I still have to play on the "boys" team. Those are genetic dividers. If you want to switch teams (hey, I used that phrase correctly), go see the doctor and get the whole works performed. I have a cousin who is the process of just that. It's weird because he didn't present with any conflicts until his mid-20s, but so be it.

I have no problem with people not wholly identifying with the body they were born with, and doing whatever in their means to change that. Most of us take the attitude that we accept the hand that God/genetics/whatever dealt us and rationalize it internally or try to change our perceptions of ourselves. That somebody is unwilling or unable to change themselves mentally and instead opts to do it through their physical appearance doesn't make their efforts to reconcile themselves any less honorable than mine.

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Postby columbia » Tue Apr 21, 2015 10:56 am

It's the sex vs gender issue.
They are different things, although they (for the most part) usually align.

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Postby cadams » Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:50 am

I don't know, arguing with biology and genetics sounds kind of anti-science to me :pop:

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Postby count2infinity » Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:31 pm

people who like slippery slope arguments might say, "well if someone doesn't like their nose or their bewbs, should we cater to that, too?". and to that i'd say it's an apples and oranges thing, and that should be obvious.
I'm certainly not saying it's a slippery slope. I'm saying the way the lady that lead the charge to get it done said something that could be seen as a slippery slope...
“For anyone who looks in the mirror and sees something that’s not them, it can be traumatic and triggering,” Cox said. “Having the body that you’re supposed to have and seeing yourself in the way you want to be is really important.”
Some people drive themselves batty because there's a party of their body they don't like, and for them it can be traumatic just looking in the mirror and seeing it.

Additionally, I just read a little background info, and apparently patients that want to undergo such procedures need to go through extensive psychological testing to make sure that it's truly what they need, so It's certainly not something that is going to be done on a whim.

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Postby CBear3 » Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:35 pm

Right, sex is biology; gender is a state of conformity to societal norms (attitudes, feelings, and behaviors that a given culture associates with a person’s biological sex). Thanks to the American Psychological Association.

Since conformity depends on a variable reference point (cultures) I don't see how this becomes such a big issue. Tattoos used to be totally taboo, and I can count on one hand the number of people I know without one now. Men with long hair, men with earrings, those specifically used to be feminine cultural expectations. Culture needs to catch up. Hell, I can only imagine how comfortable it'd be to rock a sundress in the hot humid summer. :pop:
That doesn't mean transgender bathrooms (as long as society still wants to consider reproductive parts private) or sports teams (if we're interested in fair play, that's the reason JV teams and schools size classes exist to maintain a level playing field).

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Postby shmenguin » Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:35 pm

people who like slippery slope arguments might say, "well if someone doesn't like their nose or their bewbs, should we cater to that, too?". and to that i'd say it's an apples and oranges thing, and that should be obvious.
I'm certainly not saying it's a slippery slope. I'm saying the way the lady that lead the charge to get it done said something that could be seen as a slippery slope...
“For anyone who looks in the mirror and sees something that’s not them, it can be traumatic and triggering,” Cox said. “Having the body that you’re supposed to have and seeing yourself in the way you want to be is really important.”
Some people drive themselves batty because there's a party of their body they don't like, and for them it can be traumatic just looking in the mirror and seeing it.

Additionally, I just read a little background info, and apparently patients that want to undergo such procedures need to go through extensive psychological testing to make sure that it's truly what they need, so It's certainly not something that is going to be done on a whim.
yeah, she's taking it too far, if we're talking about making special accommodations via insurance or government programs.

also, you've apparently never seen silence of the lambs, if that was news to you about the psych evaluations. i am disappoint.

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Postby count2infinity » Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:39 pm

I've never seen silence of the lambs, so yes, you can be disappoint. :lol:

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Postby CBear3 » Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:40 pm

Source of the post yeah, she's taking it too far, if we're talking about making special accommodations via insurance or government programs.
And that's where I'm at. They shouldn't be persecuted or derided, society needs to come a lot further in accepting them and all people, but they shouldn't be given special consideration.

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Postby tifosi77 » Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:48 pm

On a personal level, I don't see how the label of gender dysphoria as a disorder would be all that heavy

It's no different than bipolar disorder or borderline personality disorder or schizophrenia

I don't even see how that's offensive
This sort of touches on what I was trying to get at in my initial point. I do not know how to categorize TG, largely because I'm not that familiar with it. But my initial inclination is that it is not on the same level as homosexuality, as regards one's ability to be TG or not be TG. (I am fully prepared to be shown that I'm wrong in that view, btw) But I think TG people would bristle (as columbia and obhave have pointed out) at the notion that they somehow possess the ability to control this particular aspect of who they are. As such, when comparing TG to mental ailments can be quite challenging, as it suggests that there is a 'treatment' for TG, or that TG can be managed in some way. (And I'm not talking about reassignment surgery.)

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Postby tifosi77 » Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:50 pm

I've never seen silence of the lambs, so yes, you can be disappoint. :lol:
There's a scene in that movie - and all the normal people in the thread who have seen the movie know exactly what I'm talking about - where the killer is, erm, relaxing in his boudoir, standing in front of a mirror. That scene cannot be deleted from your brain memory, no matter how hard you try.

:scared:

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