Politics And Current Events

[tifosi77]

jesus would probably attend, but one is not forbidden to attend it...

And the wine.... what about the wine?

[grunthy]

I didn't know gifts were outlawed.

[count2infinity]

Should churches be allowed to refuse to perform gay marriage?

should they be allowed? yes. should they be forced? no.

How is that different than a religious store owner?

I don't understand your question... at all.

[grunthy]

Should churches be allowed to refuse to perform gay marriage?

should they be allowed? yes. should they be forced? no.

How is that different than a religious store owner?

I don't understand your question... at all.

You said churches can refuse service for certain things, how is that different from a religious store owner?

[count2infinity]

Are you trolling, or do you really not see the differences?

[PFiDC]

Hmmm... the cake thing is interesting. She offered to make the cakes, just not write hate speech on it. I'm reading in articles that William Jack asked for Bible verses to "Kill all [homophobic slur]" and everything in between, so I'm not sure what he really asked her to put on the cake. Now trying to tie that to a wedding cake discussion we've had before in Indiana... well, I don't know how many weddings you've been to, but rarely do the cakes have writing on them. Her approach was very similar to a suggestion that I offered earlier in the thread. Agree to do the bare minimum to provide the service to that particular customer, but if it goes beyond a cake that you would normally make, then feel free to say no.

It's still a denial of service. So can a religious bake shop refuse to make a same-sex couples cake, but give them ingredients and say "here you go, make it yourself!"

This is why that hypothetical posed by Rick Santorum is apples-oranges. He wondered if a gay baker would be forced to bake a cake for the Westboro Baptist Church that says 'God hate f*gs' absent a RFRA. And I would say that's a very different kettle of fish than simply baking a cake for WBC. One, because it's hate speech and I don't think anyone can be compelled to engage in an expression of hate speech. Two, because as a homosexual, the baker would be forced to disparage himself in preparing the cake. That's a fair bit different from providing a service to someone whose practices you have religious disagreements.

I have to disagree with the last part. The religious business owner forced to make a cake for a ceremony they think is against their religion would also be disparaging to their faith which, in most cases I would assume, is very very near and dear to them. We are warned against contributing or participating in ceremonies, events, rituals, etc. which go against our faith. Telling them "Well you're just going to have to evolve your religious beliefs" is a bit harsh. Remember, were I a baker, I would make the gay cake no questions asked.

I guess the real question is twofold: As I recall, the first miracle Jesus performed was turning water into wine at a wedding. If it had been a gay wedding; 1) would he and Mary have even gone? and 2) if he had, would he have said, "Don't give any of the wine to the married couple"?

I'm going to respond in the religion thread.

[grunthy]

Are you trolling, or do you really not see the differences?

I want you to answer the question.

[tifosi77]

I didn't know gifts were outlawed.

The dodging is disappoint.

[PFiDC]

A church should absolutely be able to say no to performing or renting space for a gay wedding without any legal recourse.

[grunthy]

I didn't know gifts were outlawed.

The dodging is disappoint.

I didn't dodge. I answered your questions.

[tifosi77]

A church should absolutely be able to say no to performing or renting space for a gay wedding without any legal recourse.

But do you think Jesus himself would have refused to attend a same-sex wedding, and refused to turn water into wine for the married couple?

This is a pretty simple yes-no question.

[tifosi77]

I didn't know gifts were outlawed.

The dodging is disappoint.

I didn't dodge. I answered your questions.

You absolutely did not. I asked two yes-no questions, and got neither a yes or a no for answers.

[PFiDC]

A church should absolutely be able to say no to performing or renting space for a gay wedding without any legal recourse.

But do you think Jesus himself would have refused to attend a same-sex wedding, and refused to turn water into wine for the married couple?

This is a pretty simple yes-no question.

You are assuming he turned water into wine as a gift. That was not why he did it though.

If he was invited I think he would have gone. It's an asinine question though because I'm pretty sure gay weddings were rare (to say the least) in 1st century Israel.

[count2infinity]

Are you trolling, or do you really not see the differences?

I want you to answer the question.

I think I'm done engaging with you in these threads. It's tiresome. It reminds me of trying to communicate with EPP and none of the benefits of EPP actually being helpful on some subjects. Enjoy your time here, but I'm done with you.

[columbia]

I miss EPP.

[MWB]

Should churches be allowed to refuse to perform gay marriage?

should they be allowed? yes. should they be forced? no.

How is that different than a religious store owner?

I don't understand your question... at all.

You said churches can refuse service for certain things, how is that different from a religious store owner?

Churches are stores. In theory, they aren't businesses either.

[tifosi77]

You are assuming he turned water into wine as a gift. That was not why he did it though.

If he was invited I think he would have gone. It's an asinine question though because I'm pretty sure gay weddings were rare (to say the least) in 1st century Israel.

I'm not presuming anything about his motives. He was at a wedding that was running short on wine, he turn the 30-gallon tubs of water into wine. I just want to know if the people who believe in Jesus as the messiah and savior of man think he would have done that if it was a same-sex wedding.

[Factorial]

Are you trolling, or do you really not see the differences?

I want you to answer the question.

I think I'm done engaging with you in these threads. It's tiresome. It reminds me of trying to communicate with EPP and none of the benefits of EPP actually being helpful on some subjects. Enjoy your time here, but I'm done with you.

[Factorial]

Are you trolling, or do you really not see the differences?

I want you to answer the question.

I think I'm done engaging with you in these threads. It's tiresome. It reminds me of trying to communicate with EPP and none of the benefits of EPP actually being helpful on some subjects. Enjoy your time here, but I'm done with you.

Has no one invited EPP? I thought some of yinz were friends of his on fb.

[PFiDC]

You are assuming he turned water into wine as a gift. That was not why he did it though.

If he was invited I think he would have gone. It's an asinine question though because I'm pretty sure gay weddings were rare (to say the least) in 1st century Israel.

I'm not presuming anything about his motives. He was at a wedding that was running short on wine, he turn the 30-gallon tubs of water into wine. I just want to know if the people who believe in Jesus as the messiah and savior of man think he would have done that if it was a same-sex wedding.

No, I do not. He didn't want to do it at the marriage mentioned in the book of John either. It was at the behest of his mother that he performed the miracle at all. Also, the only people who knew about it were Mary, Jesus, the disciples, and the servants. The Master of Ceremonies even gives the credit to the groom for the exceptional wine at the end of the feast.

[count2infinity]

tif... your questioning is very much off base here. As PFiDC said, you're asking for something that never would have happened at the time of the marriage as the entire idea of same-sex weddings is a relatively new (historically speaking) event. I realize that you don't think it (the miracle) ever happened, but expecting them to be able to answer a hypothetical that never had any chance of occurring is really out there.

[PFiDC]

tif... your questioning is very much off base here. As PFiDC said, you're asking for something that never would have happened at the time of the marriage as the entire idea of same-sex weddings is a relatively new (historically speaking) event. I realize that you don't think it (the miracle) ever happened, but expecting them to be able to answer a hypothetical that never had any chance of occurring is really out there.

Basically. The only reason I can say 'no' is because it is recorded that he didn't want to turn the water into wine at the hetero wedding either. I guess the real question should be, 'would Mary ask Jesus to turn water into wine at a gay wedding?'

[shafnutz05]

Yeah, I'm all for discussion but that question is so far out of left field. It's like asking if Genghis Khan would have posted all of his conquests on Facebook if he had access to it when he was alive.

[Factorial]

tif... your questioning is very much off base here. As PFiDC said, you're asking for something that never would have happened at the time of the marriage as the entire idea of same-sex weddings is a relatively new (historically speaking) event. I realize that you don't think it (the miracle) ever happened, but expecting them to be able to answer a hypothetical that never had any chance of occurring is really out there.

Basically. The only reason I can say 'no' is because it is recorded that he didn't want to turn the water into wine at the hetero wedding either. I guess the real question should be, 'would Mary ask Jesus to turn water into wine at a gay wedding?'

Probably.

[Factorial]

Yeah, I'm all for discussion but that question is so far out of left field. It's like asking if Genghis Khan would have posted all of his conquests on Facebook if he had access to it when he was alive.

Does ISIS do that? I know they tweet.