Politics And Current Events

[grunthy]

Hmmm... the cake thing is interesting. She offered to make the cakes, just not write hate speech on it. I'm reading in articles that William Jack asked for Bible verses to "Kill all [homophobic slur]" and everything in between, so I'm not sure what he really asked her to put on the cake. Now trying to tie that to a wedding cake discussion we've had before in Indiana... well, I don't know how many weddings you've been to, but rarely do the cakes have writing on them. Her approach was very similar to a suggestion that I offered earlier in the thread. Agree to do the bare minimum to provide the service to that particular customer, but if it goes beyond a cake that you would normally make, then feel free to say no.

It's still a denial of service. So can a religious bake shop refuse to make a same-sex couples cake, but give them ingredients and say "here you go, make it yourself!"

[count2infinity]

Hmmm... the cake thing is interesting. She offered to make the cakes, just not write hate speech on it. I'm reading in articles that William Jack asked for Bible verses to "Kill all [homophobic slur]" and everything in between, so I'm not sure what he really asked her to put on the cake. Now trying to tie that to a wedding cake discussion we've had before in Indiana... well, I don't know how many weddings you've been to, but rarely do the cakes have writing on them. Her approach was very similar to a suggestion that I offered earlier in the thread. Agree to do the bare minimum to provide the service to that particular customer, but if it goes beyond a cake that you would normally make, then feel free to say no.

It's still a denial of service. So can a religious bake shop refuse to make a same-sex couples cake, but give them ingredients and say "here you go, make it yourself!"

One of these is a gay wedding cake, one is a straight wedding cake:

Can you tell the difference?

Now if the shop typically does what is seen above, what does it matter who it's for? Those cakes are just cakes. What I'm saying is if the person wanting the cake wants something like this:

I fully support the cake shop's right to say, "well, we'll make you the cake, go find your own groom and groom to put on top though." Which is EXACTLY what this shop owner did. She said she'd make the cake, but if the guy wanted hate speech written all over it, then he'd have to do that himself.

[Freddy Rumsen]

I agree with count2infinity on this case.

[grunthy]

Since when are bible verses hate speech?

[Freddy Rumsen]

Since when are bible verses hate speech?

The intent here is all wrong and does damage to whatever message this misguided soul was trying to make.

[count2infinity]

Since when are bible verses hate speech?

In March of 2014, Marjorie Silva, owner of Azucar, refused to make cakes that included two Bible verses: “God hates sin. Psalm 45:7″ and “Homosexuality is a detestable sin. Leviticus 18:2[2].” The cake design was also to include a portrayal of two grooms holding hands in front of a cross with a red “X” over them. The man who made the request, one William Jack, proceeded to file a complaint against her for discriminating against him based on his “creed” as defined by Colorado law.

I'm sure you're familiar with the transitive property. If God hates Sin and homosexuality is a sin, then God hates homosexuality. Additionally the imagery he wanted on the cake.

[eddy]

John Oliver on the Patriot Act and flying to Russia to interview Snowden which is genius.

[grunthy]

Since when are bible verses hate speech?

The intent here is all wrong and does damage to whatever message this misguided soul was trying to make.

I agree that the intent of the message is wrong, but she is denying his religious freedom. I'm sure she makes cakes with wording on them.

[grunthy]

I just want to see what services you will deny people.

[MWB]

Since when are bible verses hate speech?

The intent here is all wrong and does damage to whatever message this misguided soul was trying to make.

I agree that the intent of the message is wrong, but she is denying his religious freedom. I'm sure she makes cakes with wording on them.

It's religous freedom to have someone write specific things on a cake?

[count2infinity]

Shad is going to love this vid:

Nsfw word at the very end.

[Freddy Rumsen]

Since when are bible verses hate speech?

The intent here is all wrong and does damage to whatever message this misguided soul was trying to make.

I agree that the intent of the message is wrong, but she is denying his religious freedom. I'm sure she makes cakes with wording on them.

There is no religious freedom to be a jerk and that is why I support her.

[MWB]

Exactly. It's out of the realm of common sense to expect a company to be derogatory. It's not out of the realm of common sense to expect a company to provide service for a customer.

[Freddy Rumsen]

This story is actually kind of funny.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle ... 8414707099

[grunthy]

Then it's ok for a company to not make something for others.

[PFiDC]

EDIT: I did not fact check the quotes.

[PFiDC]

Then it's ok for a company to not make something for others.

If by 'ok' you mean discriminatory than yes.

[grunthy]

How does one determine if it's discriminatory and has the right to refuse service?

[PFiDC]

How does one determine if it's discriminatory and has the right to refuse service?

Are you refusing to serve someone because they are (insert race, gender, sexual preference, religion, etc. here)? Then it's discriminatory.

Are you refusing to serve someone because they are not meeting a dress code then it is the right to refuse service.

[count2infinity]

There's a local wing shop that sells 15 wings (they sell them in other quantities too, but stay with me here), and you can have up to 3 different sauces. I once asked if I could have my wings packaged into separate containers so the sauces don't mix. They said they don't do that. That is not discriminatory towards me, it's just a practice that they don't do separately sauced boxes. Now if I said, "I'd like 15 wings with 3 different sauces, oh... and I'm having them at my gay wedding." and they refuse, that is discriminatory. It's what they would do for any other customer, but because I'm taking the wings to a gay wedding, they won't do it.

Same for the cake shop... He asked for words and pictures drawn on his cake that the owner felt were hateful. It's not because he's a christian, it's because they were hateful in her eyes. I'm sure if someone walked in and said "I want a cake that says 'I'm going to kill you.'" She would have said no as well. That's just not something the cake shop does. If he walked in and said, "I'd like that cake *points to cake* , and by the way I'm going to have the cake at a church celebration" and she said no, that would be discrimination toward the church.

[MWB]

How does one determine if it's discriminatory and has the right to refuse service?

How is it discriminatory for a business to say they won't write derogatory things on a cake? Who is being discriminated against?

[grunthy]

How does one determine if it's discriminatory and has the right to refuse service?

How is it discriminatory for a business to say they won't write derogatory things on a cake? Who is being discriminated against?

I'm playing devils advocate here.

She made a boob cake for a birthday party. Many women find that derogatory towards women, but refuses to make a cake with wording from the bible that she finds derogatory.

[count2infinity]

Well, if he had asked for a boob cake, then she would have made it.

[PFiDC]

Now I'm hungry for boob cake.

[count2infinity]

Where is team cake when you need him?