Politics And Current Events

[NTP66]

Source of the post For all of the whack ass nonsense in this thread over the years, I had the impression that the undercurrent was "USA, don't police the world anymore" - which lasted right up until ****** pointless non-strategic nation lost two dozen corn fields to former rival...

No US boots on the ground. Giving money and weapons to Ukraine? I'm 100% in favor of it, because nobody with at least half a brain - and I mean nobody - should find what Russia is doing acceptable, and not realize that if they get to do whatever they want, they will just continue to escalate.

[count2infinity]

I recall reading a book in kindergarten called “if you give a mouse a cookie…”. I think that kindergarten lesson applies here. Remember when Hitler wanted Czechoslovakia?

[Gaucho]

meh, all they lost were two dozen cornfields

[NTP66]

meh, all they lost were two dozen cornfields

[Trip McNeely]

I think the whole “saving lives” angle is downright farcical. Do we think loss of life will just stop if Russia won the war? They will continue to kill any Ukrainians long after the war had ended and likely in huge, huge numbers. Despite all the loss of life, Ukrainians know that laying down their arms is just going to end up causing even more deaths in civilians and will cause deaths in other non-nato countries when Putin surely attacks them

[Nuge]

I recall reading a book in kindergarten called “if you give a mouse a cookie…”. I think that kindergarten lesson applies here. Remember when Hitler wanted Czechoslovakia?

Chamberlain, you could hold his head in the toilet, he'd still give you half of Europe.

[meow]

Let’s simply appease Putin

[MrKennethTKangaroo]

I find it pretty interesting that 5af’s response to the Ukraine morass pretty much mirrors the entire western worlds response. Plenty of high minded denunciations of Putin but very limited willpower to actually think about the cost and consequences of fighting for a fully restored Ukraine.

This whole topic isn’t a question of “is Putin a bad hombre?” Because we all know he is. We can sit here and say he’s a bad guy and we shouldn’t tolerate invasions of sovereign nations.

But as I said, the west’s response has been similar to 5af’s response. The EU and US are willing to vocally support Ukraine and provide juuuuust enough money and material to keep the dream alive. But as shysters map alluded to, money and well wishes aren’t doing much good against russias mine fields and helicopters and drones and army of convicts.

Escalation is the only way to win. And by escalate, I don’t mean more tanks. I mean sending people on the ground and people in airplanes. Does anyone think western leaders are willing to people their own peoples lives at risk for this? Should they be willing to sacrifice?

Again this isn’t a morality play about the evils of Putin.

[Troy Loney]

And isn’t that just a distillation of the primary dilemmas of the 20th century?

Superpowers committing atrocities within their “sphere” of influence knowing that they can bully weaker neighbors and opponents will not get directly involved. So routine proxy wars. And obviously Germany was confronted because they did their atrocities on the continent proper.

Putin just prodding a global vulnerability, that being the first world is in no position to confront someone like Russia. The first world just didn’t go a good enough job at integrating Russia after the fall. They have little to lose from being economically ostracized. If china’s economic expansion wasn’t so closely linked to the other global powers, they would have taken Taiwan by now.

[count2infinity]

There's certainly a middle ground between "fully restored Ukraine" and "giving Putin what he wants". I don't think anyone is actually arguing for either of those, but I could be wrong.

I think the biggest problem with negotiating an end is that Putin and Russia have already shown in the Crimea negotiations from almost a decade ago now (...can you believe it's been that long?) that they're not going to stop. Once they get small parts of Ukraine, they'll go for all of Ukraine, then what? The Baltic nations?

Unfortunately Putin and Russia have put the world into a zero win event. There is no winning here. It'd be great if Russia just stopped being a menace, but that's not going to happen any time soon. A stalemate with Ukraine is where we're at now. Stalemates aren't great, but it could be much worse.

[Pavel Bure]

Where did this thought of appeasing Putin come from? Is it a new right wing talking point on podcasts or something? Are they dressing up appeasing the fascists with “what about the loss of life?” and “do you really think Ukraine can win?” and “well what would it take for them to win?” This is a very strange take that history has taught us does not work.

[count2infinity]

Again, there's a middle ground.... "Give Putin what he wants and be done with it" isn't what's being discussed here.

[willeyeam]

i mean again, the opposite can be asked. Putin only gained 500 miles of land, why does he think he'll succeed? Shouldn't he call for a truce instead of wasting all these resources?

[NTP66]

i mean again, the opposite can be asked. Putin only gained 500 miles of land, why does he think he'll succeed? Shouldn't he call for a truce instead of wasting all these resources?

How dare you ask that question.

[Troy Loney]

Where did this thought of appeasing Putin come from? Is it a new right wing talking point on podcasts or something? Are they dressing up appeasing the fascists with “what about the loss of life?” and “do you really think Ukraine can win?” and “well what would it take for them to win?” This is a very strange take that history has taught us does not work.

Online culture wars aren't well equipped to handle nuance, history, or complexity.

Very few positions on this withstand much scrutiny. So, it's probably not a good exercise to try and like pin a 5AF, or reddit poster down on their Ukraine takes.

Elon is a little tricky, my first inclination is to dismiss his opinion as that of a prolific r/conservative poster. But he has some history in this whole fight (with the Starlink stuff) that hasn't been fully explained (imo).

I think it's mostly just that online cultural affinities are presenting a new "dual loyalty" situations that haven't been considered before. Will 50% of the country support/endorse russian invasions because Putin is based? Will Europe and the US take varying sides in an Isreali war because Israel is a supervillain to the left?

[count2infinity]

The difference is much like Musk wasting his billions of dollars on Twitter vs the US DOEd "wasting" money on diversity and inclusivity efforts. If Musk or Russia want to essentially light their money on fire... fine. It's their money. I'm going to call them names, but at the end of the day it's their money. If the Department of Ed or Ukraine is spending US tax payer money, then it's something to be questioned as to how and why that money is being spent.

[Pavel Bure]

Again, there's a middle ground.... "Give Putin what he wants and be done with it" isn't what's being discussed here.

What’s the middle ground?

[Lelldorin]

The Ukrainians seem to prefer to risque their lives on the battlefield instead of being tortured, r***d and killed in Russian facilitites. Consequently, they are motivated and have so far show that they are capable fighters and tacticians.

I think that the human cost for NATO could be almost zero, since the Ukrainians are willing to bleed for their freedom. So the cost for NATO is mainly the weapons/equipment. Unless you want to include reduced businnes opportunities with the Russians.

So the dilemma is how much equipment/weapons we should keep for our own safety and how much we are willing to manufacture. I guess the military complex is drooling over the opportunity to produce a lot of material while the taxpayers kind of cheer on the Ukrainians...

[DigitalGypsy66]

My uncle is a government contractor, currently in Poland for the next few months (planned months ago) to help build out a NATO base.

I find that very interesting. I wonder what a combined NATO incursion into Russia from Poland would look like. Would it draw off Russian forces in Ukraine? Are the Russians spread too thin to defend themselves properly? They are down to upfitting T-62 and T-55 tanks FFS.

[Pavel Bure]

My uncle is a government contractor, currently in Poland for the next few months (planned months ago) to help build out a NATO base.

I find that very interesting. I wonder what a combined NATO incursion into Russia from Poland would look like. Would it draw off Russian forces in Ukraine? Are the Russians spread too thin to defend themselves properly? They are down to upfitting T-62 and T-55 tanks FFS.

I could be wrong but I’m fairly certain that NATO isn’t in the business of invading countries that haven’t shown them hostilities.

Edit: What was Kosovo? Just a brutal dictator committing war crimes. I don’t remember for sure and haven’t gone back to look.

[count2infinity]

Again, there's a middle ground.... "Give Putin what he wants and be done with it" isn't what's being discussed here.

What’s the middle ground?

Putin wants all of Ukraine to be Russia, right? If they negotiated an end to the war right now and everyone just goes home and Russia gets the measly two cornfields/ 500mi², that's a middle ground.

[Pavel Bure]

Again, there's a middle ground.... "Give Putin what he wants and be done with it" isn't what's being discussed here.

What’s the middle ground?

Putin wants all of Ukraine to be Russia, right? If they negotiated an end to the war right now and everyone just goes home and Russia gets the measly two cornfields/ 500mi², that's a middle ground.

And when Russia does this again in a couple years?

[willeyeam]

Anyway ktk is right. At the end of the day, nothing changes unless Ukraine and the west escalate. Should they escalate? Idk

[mikey]

I find it pretty interesting that 5af’s response to the Ukraine morass pretty much mirrors the entire western worlds response. Plenty of high minded denunciations of Putin but very limited willpower to actually think about the cost and consequences of fighting for a fully restored Ukraine.

This whole topic isn’t a question of “is Putin a bad hombre?” Because we all know he is. We can sit here and say he’s a bad guy and we shouldn’t tolerate invasions of sovereign nations.

But as I said, the west’s response has been similar to 5af’s response. The EU and US are willing to vocally support Ukraine and provide juuuuust enough money and material to keep the dream alive. But as shysters map alluded to, money and well wishes aren’t doing much good against russias mine fields and helicopters and drones and army of convicts.

Escalation is the only way to win. And by escalate, I don’t mean more tanks. I mean sending people on the ground and people in airplanes. Does anyone think western leaders are willing to people their own peoples lives at risk for this? Should they be willing to sacrifice?

Again this isn’t a morality play about the evils of Putin.

The messaging is the point.

[count2infinity]

Again, there's a middle ground.... "Give Putin what he wants and be done with it" isn't what's being discussed here.

What’s the middle ground?

Putin wants all of Ukraine to be Russia, right? If they negotiated an end to the war right now and everyone just goes home and Russia gets the measly two cornfields/ 500mi², that's a middle ground.

And when Russia does this again in a couple years?

Right... that's why I've suggested the negotiation approach won't work. It's overly simplistic to say "just go to the table and negotiate" with a guy that's already been shown to not negotiate in good faith. But the idea of "roll over and give Putin everything he wants" isn't what's being argued either.