Politics And Current Events

DigitalGypsy66
Posts: 19764
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:33 pm
Location: Iodine State

Politics And Current Events

Postby DigitalGypsy66 » Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:25 am

paywall but what’s the argument against him praying? I don’t get this one
It's a public high school? You know, separation of church and state?
The Supreme Court ruled on Monday that a high school football coach had a constitutional right to pray at the 50-yard line after his team’s games.

The vote was 6 to 3, with the court’s three liberal members in dissent.

The case pitted the rights of government workers to free speech and the free exercise of their faith against the Constitution’s prohibition of government endorsement of religion and the ability of public employers to regulate speech in the workplace. The decision was in tension with decades of Supreme Court precedents that forbade pressuring students to participate in religious activities.

The case concerned Joseph Kennedy, an assistant coach at a public high school in Bremerton, Wash., near Seattle. For eight years, Mr. Kennedy routinely offered prayers after games, with students often joining him. He also led and participated in prayers in the locker room, a practice he later abandoned and did not defend in the Supreme Court.

In 2015, after an opposing coach told the principal at Mr. Kennedy’s school that he thought it was “pretty cool” that Mr. Kennedy was allowed to pray on the field, the school board instructed Mr. Kennedy not to pray if it interfered with his duties or involved students. The two sides disagreed about whether Mr. Kennedy complied.

A school official recommended that the coach’s contract not be renewed for the 2016 season, and Mr. Kennedy did not reapply for the position.

The two sides offered starkly different accounts of what had happened in Mr. Kennedy’s final months, complicating the Supreme Court’s task. Mr. Kennedy said he sought only to offer a brief, silent and solitary prayer little different from saying grace before a meal in the school cafeteria. The school board responded that the public nature of his prayers and his stature as a leader and role model meant that students felt forced to participate, whatever their religion and whether they wanted to or not.

Over the last 60 years, the Supreme Court has rejected prayer in public schools, at least when it was officially required or part of a formal ceremony like a high school graduation. As recently as 2000, the court ruled that organized prayers led by students at high school football games violated the First Amendment’s prohibition of government establishment of religion.

“The delivery of a pregame prayer has the improper effect of coercing those present to participate in an act of religious worship,” Justice John Paul Stevens wrote for the majority.
I'm in the rural south, and prayers before public middle and high school sporting events are commonplace. It is what it is.

MWB
Posts: 8203
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:04 pm

Politics And Current Events

Postby MWB » Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:25 am

He's a public school employee on public school grounds showing his religious faith, which will certainly push kids to join in. We frequently hear that teachers shouldn't state their personal viewpoints to students. How is this different?

Troy Loney
Posts: 27607
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2015 3:03 pm

Politics And Current Events

Postby Troy Loney » Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:26 am

If the law should reflect the will of the people than taxes go away. Woohoo!
Yes, centuries of social developments would just end because individually, people don't like paying taxes.

This is simpleton logic

Beveridge
Posts: 5399
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2015 6:17 pm
Location: 8-8-1

Politics And Current Events

Postby Beveridge » Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:28 am

Also with regards to that coach ruling... He shouldn't be fired for praying just as anyone shouldn't be fired for not praying. It's a case that never should have gained any traction because the school district should have known better. If there was direct punishment for not praying, then they would have had cause.

Troy Loney
Posts: 27607
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2015 3:03 pm

Politics And Current Events

Postby Troy Loney » Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:28 am

He's a public school employee on public school grounds showing his religious faith, which will certainly push kids to join in. We frequently hear that teachers shouldn't state their personal viewpoints to students. How is this different?
People are hypocrites, that's a given (especially the absolute dumbest among us that talk about "grooming").

CBear3
Posts: 7691
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:02 pm
Location: KC, MO

Politics And Current Events

Postby CBear3 » Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:29 am

Just overturning precedent wherever you look. Stare decisis my assis.
A state employee should have the right to pray, but they shouldn't be doing it on the public's dime. It's not like you're holding games and pausing for the Maghrib so you "have" to pray right then. Under this ruling, I could start every hour of class by standing in front of the room and praying the rosary.

MalkinIsMyHomeboy
Posts: 29485
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2015 1:45 pm
Location: “MIMH is almost always correct” -ulf

Politics And Current Events

Postby MalkinIsMyHomeboy » Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:30 am

He's a public school employee on public school grounds showing his religious faith, which will certainly push kids to join in. We frequently hear that teachers shouldn't state their personal viewpoints to students. How is this different?
hypocrisy of republicans notwithstanding, I just don’t see the problem here. Dude is a public employee, yeah, but I have a really hard time getting worked up about this. If he forced kids to pray with him that’s one thing, but leading a prayer? I don’t see the issue

MalkinIsMyHomeboy
Posts: 29485
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2015 1:45 pm
Location: “MIMH is almost always correct” -ulf

Politics And Current Events

Postby MalkinIsMyHomeboy » Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:32 am

Just overturning precedent wherever you look. Stare decisis my assis.
A state employee should have the right to pray, but they shouldn't be doing it on the public's dime. It's not like you're holding games and pausing for the Maghrib so you "have" to pray right then. Under this ruling, I could start every hour of class by standing in front of the room and praying the rosary.
The tweet says “after the games” so I don’t think this is really on the public dime

Viva la Ben
Posts: 11092
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2015 5:08 pm
Location: Location: Location

Politics And Current Events

Postby Viva la Ben » Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:32 am

So you are saying the one guy who decides if a kid plays or not wouldn’t punish a non-believer. :thumb:

MWB
Posts: 8203
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:04 pm

Politics And Current Events

Postby MWB » Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:33 am

Kneel down and pray on the sideline, on your own. What's the purpose of going to the 50 yard line to do it? And if he's offering to lead a prayer, then it becomes more than just a personal thing.

Morkle
Posts: 23083
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2015 4:09 pm
Location: Pittsburgh

Politics And Current Events

Postby Morkle » Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:33 am

It always makes me think of Two-A-Days and Friday Night Lights when they'd have a preacher come in and lead a team prayer before the game.

It happens, it happened at my school, and it's not right. The pressure to join in is there.

If he wants to go out there and do a prayer by himself great, having kids join him, and others being or feeling "forced" to partake is a major no-no to me.

Viva la Ben
Posts: 11092
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2015 5:08 pm
Location: Location: Location

Politics And Current Events

Postby Viva la Ben » Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:34 am

Punishment is a huge part of playing football.

MWB
Posts: 8203
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:04 pm

Politics And Current Events

Postby MWB » Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:35 am

Just overturning precedent wherever you look. Stare decisis my assis.
A state employee should have the right to pray, but they shouldn't be doing it on the public's dime. It's not like you're holding games and pausing for the Maghrib so you "have" to pray right then. Under this ruling, I could start every hour of class by standing in front of the room and praying the rosary.
The tweet says “after the games” so I don’t think this is really on the public dime
On the field, presumably before going to the locker room. So yes, that would be on the public's dime.

CBear3
Posts: 7691
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:02 pm
Location: KC, MO

Politics And Current Events

Postby CBear3 » Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:36 am

The tweet says “after the games” so I don’t think this is really on the public dime
The public is not allowed on the field at will. His use of the public school's field is only through his employment at the school. He's praying in between the game and heading back to the locker room for a post game speech.
The only reason he's praying where and when he is, is because he's public school teacher and acting in his employed role.

meow
Posts: 30571
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:53 am
Location: I have four degrees and am a moron. Don’t let that fool you

Politics And Current Events

Postby meow » Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:40 am

If god is on his side, then god has to get against the other team. This is basically a crusade on Friday nights

CBear3
Posts: 7691
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:02 pm
Location: KC, MO

Politics And Current Events

Postby CBear3 » Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:42 am

It always makes me think of Two-A-Days and Friday Night Lights when they'd have a preacher come in and lead a team prayer before the game.

It happens, it happened at my school, and it's not right. The pressure to join in is there.

If he wants to go out there and do a prayer by himself great, having kids join him, and others being or feeling "forced" to partake is a major no-no to me.
We would always circle up and offer a prayer before a cross country race. Entirely student led. It was a team building moment, between 7 of us. In hindsight, it was wrong because what if one of the seven wasn't comfortable? He'd feel like he had to be there and participate, regardless of his beliefs. One of 7 would be pretty obvious and create a situation as an "outcast."

RonnieFranchise
Posts: 12504
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:45 pm
Location: Phil Kessel's name is on the Stanley Cup. Thrice.

Politics And Current Events

Postby RonnieFranchise » Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:59 am

I want religion not involved in anything government run. Full stop. Yes the country was founded by Christians, but on the grounds of religious freedom. Don't pay public money to send students to church related schools. Don't do things that even give the impression, even if it is not your intent, that if a student doesn't join in, they will not get playing time.

And I say this as a mildly religious person, which I realize to some of you makes me a simpleton. Unless we're in church, leave me alone with your religion, even if it's the same as mine.

Morkle
Posts: 23083
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2015 4:09 pm
Location: Pittsburgh

Politics And Current Events

Postby Morkle » Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:12 am

Absolutely agree 100% @RonnieFranchise

skullman80
Posts: 19436
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2015 5:02 pm
Location: Monroeville, PA

Politics And Current Events

Postby skullman80 » Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:15 am

I want religion not involved in anything government run. Full stop. Yes the country was founded by Christians, but on the grounds of religious freedom. Don't pay public money to send students to church related schools. Don't do things that even give the impression, even if it is not your intent, that if a student doesn't join in, they will not get playing time.

And I say this as a mildly religious person, which I realize to some of you makes me a simpleton. Unless we're in church, leave me alone with your religion, even if it's the same as mine.
:thumb: :thumb:

CBear3
Posts: 7691
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:02 pm
Location: KC, MO

Politics And Current Events

Postby CBear3 » Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:16 am

I'd like to think we've entered a phase of my rights are superior than our shared co-existence. That the government is focusing on your ability to practice the rights granted to you, with little to no regard on how you're practicing effect the rights of others.

I don't agree with it, but I'd like to think it's just the extreme of individual liberty being practiced.

Because the alternative is that we're becoming a theocracy at the behest of the Evangelical Right.

RonnieFranchise
Posts: 12504
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:45 pm
Location: Phil Kessel's name is on the Stanley Cup. Thrice.

Politics And Current Events

Postby RonnieFranchise » Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:19 am

I'd like to think we've entered a phase of my rights are superior than our shared co-existence. That the government is focusing on your ability to practice the rights granted to you, with little to no regard on how you're practicing effect the rights of others.

I don't agree with it, but I'd like to think it's just the extreme of individual liberty being practiced.

Because the alternative is that we're becoming a theocracy at the behest of the Evangelical Right.
I hope you're right, because sometimes it feels like we're becoming Christian Saudi Arabia. Orchestrated to a large extent by Donald Trump, who in no way behaves the way I was taught to behave in my Christian upbringing. The evangelical fellation of this guy gives me brain lock.

MWB
Posts: 8203
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:04 pm

Politics And Current Events

Postby MWB » Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:38 am

”Respect for religious expressions is indispensable to life in a free and diverse Republic—whether those expressions take place in a sanctuary or on a field, and whether they manifest through the spoken word or a bowed head,” Justice Neil Gorsuch wrote for the majority.

“The only meaningful justification the government offered for its reprisal rested on a mistaken view that it had a duty to ferret out and suppress religious observances even as it allows comparable secular speech. The Constitution neither mandates nor tolerates that kind of discrimination,” he added.
What would be considered comparable secular speech?

RonnieFranchise
Posts: 12504
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:45 pm
Location: Phil Kessel's name is on the Stanley Cup. Thrice.

Politics And Current Events

Postby RonnieFranchise » Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:47 am

”Respect for religious expressions is indispensable to life in a free and diverse Republic—whether those expressions take place in a sanctuary or on a field, and whether they manifest through the spoken word or a bowed head,” Justice Neil Gorsuch wrote for the majority.

“The only meaningful justification the government offered for its reprisal rested on a mistaken view that it had a duty to ferret out and suppress religious observances even as it allows comparable secular speech. The Constitution neither mandates nor tolerates that kind of discrimination,” he added.
What would be considered comparable secular speech?
My kid's soccer team used to do the hokey pokey before every game? I guess if you allow the hokey pokey you better allow prayers. In all seriousness I assume he has the kneeling in mind- which as a forced but not really forced act (just in soccer afaik) 'm not really in favor of either.

You wanna cross yourself or bow your head before every game or something, go for it. Don't organize it.
Last edited by RonnieFranchise on Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.

CBear3
Posts: 7691
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:02 pm
Location: KC, MO

Politics And Current Events

Postby CBear3 » Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:51 am

That this was a 6-3 and that Santa Fe just 20 years ago was a 6-3 the other way is kind of mind boggling.

Viva la Ben
Posts: 11092
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2015 5:08 pm
Location: Location: Location

Politics And Current Events

Postby Viva la Ben » Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:07 pm

That is a sure mark of a SC filled with conservative partisans.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: LeopardLetang and 150 guests