Religion Discussion Thread

redwill
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Postby redwill » Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:16 pm

People with free will caused the suffering.
Let's assume that you as a good Christian go to heaven.

Will there be free will there?

If free will leads to evil and suffering, surely there is none of that in heaven, right?

Would you be willing to live an eternity with no free will?

Freddy Rumsen
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Postby Freddy Rumsen » Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:36 pm

People with free will caused the suffering.
Let's assume that you as a good Christian go to heaven.

Will there be free will there?

If free will leads to evil and suffering, surely there is none of that in heaven, right?

Would you be willing to live an eternity with no free will?
According to Christian Orthodoxy our will is free both on Earth and in Heaven.

On Earth due to the noetic effects of sin we freely, gladly, and openly choose to sin and in Heaven in our glorified state we will gladly, freely, and openly choose to worship and serve the living and true God.

redwill
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Postby redwill » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:06 pm

... in Heaven in our glorified state we will gladly, freely, and openly choose to worship and serve the living and true God.
So Christian Orthodoxy has already determined how I will utilize my free will in Heaven?

(Not that I'll be there to see it ...)

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Postby Freddy Rumsen » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:35 pm

If you are in Heaven with a perfect holy, righteous, and good God with all felicity and happiness what else would you exactly want to do?

Heaven isn't just a better version of Earth, despite what is said at most funerals.

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Postby Kaiser » Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:25 pm

If you are in Heaven with a perfect holy, righteous, and good God with all felicity and happiness what else would you exactly want to do?
Two chicks at the same time? Are things that were a sin on earth allowed in the alleged paradise? Can i eat a bunch of acid, knowing it will be the greatest possible ball tripping in the glorious kingdom?
Conversely, would a pedophile who found JC be able to have as many toddler pockets as he wants?

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Postby columbia » Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:30 pm

Christianity is really terrible at selling the seemingly henonist aspects of an afterlife. Or maybe heaven is just a bunch of uptight Baptists...

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Postby Freddy Rumsen » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:04 pm

Or maybe it is because what humans consider hedonism ain't all it is cracked up to be in real life and never lives up to the imagination?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Postby columbia » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:06 pm

Or maybe it is because what humans consider hedonism ain't all it is cracked up to be in real life and never lives up to the imagination?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I’ve experienced more hedonism than you can imagine and it was fantastic - albeit not a sustainable plan. ;)

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Postby Kaiser » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:07 pm

Its heaven, i'd be manifesting the women who are perfect for me, and then undoing them when i want a bowl of cereal or the seahawks are on.

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Postby robbiestoupe » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:26 pm

Seems like we have a bunch of wanna be Muslims in here. What with their 72 virgins and all.

On a more serious side, I'm surprised the line of thinking here is that heaven is where we can just bang each other for eternity. I thought male testosterone was just an evolutionary thing that keeps our species alive.

columbia
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Postby columbia » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:27 pm

It’s not?

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Postby Willie Kool » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:31 pm

Christianity is really terrible at selling the seemingly henonist aspects of an afterlife. Or maybe heaven is just a bunch of uptight Baptists...
“I’d rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints, the sinners are much more fun.”

― Billy Joel

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Postby count2infinity » Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:34 am

Circling back to evolution (or lack there of), I'm curious as to what is thought of fossils at all. Scientists have the ability to date fossils to a certain extent. It's clear that some fossils are far older than others, and the lack of overlap between some species in the fossil record would indicate that certain species existed far before others, and far before humans. How do you (and in this case I mean robbie and freddy as I believe they are the only two on the evolution isn't real train) perceive this within your view of genesis?

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Postby robbiestoupe » Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:18 am

I used to be a Young Earther, but have since moved on from it. I've mentioned it before: I do believe in micro evolution, but not macro evolution.

There are many theories as to why Genesis doesn't seem to align with the information science has given us today. For instance, some people believe that the "days" used to explain creation aren't actual 24 hour days, but eras or millions of years. We also don't know how long Adam and Eve lived between the time they were created and the time they sinned. That itself could have been millions of years.

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Postby count2infinity » Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:39 am

So prior to Man's arrival on earth, there are thousands and thousands of species that died off and went extinct... I know we're not to question God's intentions, but why?

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Postby robbiestoupe » Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:58 am

It's actually a good question that I don't have a good answer for. But my first thought to your question is why would it even matter to us as humans what happened to a completely different species? Does everything revolve around us, or around God (rhetorically asking from a Christian's perspective)?

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Postby count2infinity » Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:03 am

Well, if memory serves, he made all of this for us according to the bible. We, as humans "have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." So yeah, it does kind of revolve around us.

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Postby robbiestoupe » Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:16 am

To me dominion in this context means two things: we are the superior species, and we are the caretakers. That does not insinuate that it was all made for us.

Colossians 1:16 (NIV): "For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him."

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Postby count2infinity » Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:59 am

But my first thought to your question is why would it even matter to us as humans what happened to a completely different species?
To me dominion in this context means two things: we are the superior species, and we are the caretakers.

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Postby robbiestoupe » Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:59 am

Such is the fall of man. I don't know, what are you looking for here? I haven't really pondered this question of why are some animals extinct and others not. It has no bearing on what I believe.

Let's play out a scenario here. If no animals went extinct, do you think we would be able to inhabit the earth as we do now? Could we coexist with dinosaurs? Dinosaurs served their purpose on earth, and no longer exist as we know it. Perhaps Adam and Eve had no interaction with them at all. The question of why dinosaurs existed, while interesting if we knew, is not an important question, IMO.

I do believe that humans' level of hierarchy is greater than that of animals, but that "power" is not intended to be abused. I probably fall out of line with most Christians politically in that I believe in global warming, that we must do everything in our power to protect the earth from further harm by eliminating fossil fuels. I also don't fall in line with Freddy in regards to our 2A rights, because we have shown as a species that we cannot be trusted with such powers and something must be done about it.

Sorry, went off tangent there. My main point is I do believe it is still our duty as humans to be caretakers of the earth and everything in it. But due to our sinful nature, we do a very bad job of it.

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Postby count2infinity » Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:06 pm

I'm not looking for too much other than discussing the Christian story of creation.

Do you believe that before we (humans) were created there were animals that were alive and then died off before we (again, humans) ever were created? I'm just curious of the biblical history of what happened.

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Postby robbiestoupe » Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:45 pm

I'm not looking for too much other than discussing the Christian story of creation.

Do you believe that before we (humans) were created there were animals that were alive and then died off before we (again, humans) ever were created? I'm just curious of the biblical history of what happened.
Using the Bible as a history book is a bad start, IMO. Sure, it will give us some idea regarding creation and what not, but it doesn't paint the entire picture. That is where science can come in and fill in the blanks.

With that out of the way, I believe it is plausible animals lived before humans. Obviously we know they lived at least one day without humans, if one were to take the word day in the Bible literally as in 24 hours. If you don't take the word "day" literally, then it's easy to believe that animals existed for quite some time before humans did. I tend to lean that way, given the science available.

I have some questions for non-believers: what is the point of human emotion, since it doesn't seem to appear to have any affect on our existence? Why conflicting emotions, since it appears their net benefit would cancel each other out (i.e. an equal amount of love and hate would equally progress and regress the species)? Why would our ancestors (re: pre-human) develop these traits throughout evolution?

What about de-evolution? If a species can evolve, it should also be able to de-evolve. So not only should we be able to evolve as humans, but also de-evolve back into chimpanzees. Sure, only the strongest survive, but chimpanzees exist as well as humans, even though humans have "evolved" past the chimpanzee stage. Why don't we see evidence of de-evolution? Or do we?

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Postby count2infinity » Fri Feb 23, 2018 2:01 pm

Human emotion has no affect on our existence? There are plenty of articles as to why fear, love, hate, etc all are evolutionary traits and what benefits they can have to an organism.

I don't think there's such a thing as de-evolution, or at least there's not any evidence of this sort of thing: going back to exactly as it was. But an organism can continue to evolve into what would appear as reverse. For instance dolphins, whales, orcas, etc have evidence that they were once land animals that went back to the sea (where all organisms started).

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Postby shmenguin » Fri Feb 23, 2018 2:09 pm

Source of the post I have some questions for non-believers: what is the point of human emotion, since it doesn't seem to appear to have any affect on our existence?
well there's no point to literally everything. do you mean why hasn't emotion been left behind as we evolve? chicks dig sensitive guys and sociopaths are usually not that fun to breed with.

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Postby robbiestoupe » Fri Feb 23, 2018 2:53 pm

I don't think there's such a thing as de-evolution, or at least there's not any evidence of this sort of thing: going back to exactly as it was. But an organism can continue to evolve into what would appear as reverse. For instance dolphins, whales, orcas, etc have evidence that they were once land animals that went back to the sea (where all organisms started).
If DNA can mutate, it should be able to mutate into things that are beneficial and things that are not beneficial. Evolution says the non-beneficial mutations don't make it since only the strong survive. However, if a human de-evolved, meaning went back to the chimpanzee family, it could survive. Therefore, if evolution is plausible, de-evolution must also be plausible. Why isn't it seen? Simple mathematics says it should be there. There should also exist any species in between, as it wasn't like that species wasn't fit for life.

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